"Run the hearts"
#41
Posted 2021-June-03, 10:08
This is the same thing as "literary SF" with 6, 50-page chapters and more "action SF" with 50 6-page chapters. Obviously the 50-chapter book is longer and more complicated.
And anybody who compares bridge regulation with Golf - ha ha ha. The only game where the television broadcast has a "rule of the day" segment, because it's so easy for everyone to understand. (and I checked the Canadian Rules. Not only do they have a "player-friendly version" and an "official guide", the "34 rules" are *200* pages of very tight text (okay, maybe 180 pages. It also includes a bunch of advertisements for Rolex before the rules start, didn't check to see if there are interstitial ads).
#42
Posted 2021-June-03, 14:19
pran, on 2021-June-03, 09:35, said:
If declarer indicates a play without designating either a suit or a rank (as by saying ‘play anything’ or words of like meaning) either defender may designate the play from dummy.
That would only apply when discarding or leading from dummy, not when playing to a trick in progress, when "play" or "top" etc are used.
(still learning)
"At last: just calm down, this kind of disrupted boards happens every day in our bridge community. It will always be an inherent part of bridge until we move to a modern platform, and then will we have other hopefully less frequent issues." P Swennson
#43
Posted 2021-June-04, 02:02
pran, on 2021-June-03, 09:35, said:
If declarer indicates a play without designating either a suit or a rank (as by saying play anything or words of like meaning) either defender may designate the play from dummy.
jillybean, on 2021-June-03, 14:19, said:
Rubbish.
'Play' indicates any of the available cards in the appropriate suit so your comment is only relevant when Dummy has just one such available card.
(And in that case declarer's intention is definitely incontrovertible!)
#44
Posted 2021-June-04, 02:58
pran, on 2021-June-04, 02:02, said:
'Play' indicates any of the available cards in the appropriate suit so your comment is only relevant when Dummy has just one such available card.
(And in that case declarer's intention is definitely incontrovertible!)
46
B. Incomplete or Invalid Designation
In the case of an incomplete or invalid designation, the following restrictions apply (except when
declarers different intention is incontrovertible):
2. If declarer designates a suit but not a rank he is deemed to have called the lowest card of
the suit indicated.
46 B.2 must apply when a suit had been led and declarer calls 'play'. The 'suit' is assumed by default, declarer cannot play any other suit.
5. If declarer indicates a play without designating either a suit or a rank (as by saying play
anything or words of like meaning) either defender may designate the play from dummy.
46 B 5 applies when dummy cannot follow suit and declarer, as they do, directs dummy to "play anything" or "anything" ("play")
(still learning)
"At last: just calm down, this kind of disrupted boards happens every day in our bridge community. It will always be an inherent part of bridge until we move to a modern platform, and then will we have other hopefully less frequent issues." P Swennson
#45
Posted 2021-June-04, 03:27
jillybean, on 2021-June-04, 02:58, said:
B. Incomplete or Invalid Designation
In the case of an incomplete or invalid designation, the following restrictions apply (except when
declarers different intention is incontrovertible):
2. If declarer designates a suit but not a rank he is deemed to have called the lowest card of
the suit indicated.
46 B.2 must apply when a suit had been led and declarer calls 'play'. The 'suit' is assumed by default, declarer cannot play any other suit.
5. If declarer indicates a play without designating either a suit or a rank (as by saying play
anything or words of like meaning) either defender may designate the play from dummy.
46 B 5 applies when dummy cannot follow suit and declarer, as they do, directs dummy to "play anything" or "anything" ("play")
Sure, and what is the point?
#46
Posted 2021-June-04, 04:05
Theres also a guide for TDs with flow charts about the most common irregularities. Useful for those directors who dont have followed the full course, and those are in the majority over here. Some dont have any formal training at all.
#47
Posted 2021-June-05, 02:33
pran, on 2021-June-04, 03:27, said:
South is playing in 1nt, West leads a small heart, South says "Play"
Which card must dummy play?
(still learning)
"At last: just calm down, this kind of disrupted boards happens every day in our bridge community. It will always be an inherent part of bridge until we move to a modern platform, and then will we have other hopefully less frequent issues." P Swennson
#48
Posted 2021-June-05, 03:40
jillybean, on 2021-June-05, 02:33, said:
South is playing in 1nt, West leads a small heart, South says "Play"
Which card must dummy play?
Law 46B5: "If declarer indicates a play without designating either a suit or a rank (as by saying ‘play
anything’ or words of like meaning) either defender may designate the play from dummy."
Either East or West may designate, but they may not confer,
and he must of course designate a card that can legally be played from dummy, i.e. (any) one of the hearts.
Again - what is the point?
#49
Posted 2021-June-05, 08:03
pran, on 2021-June-05, 03:40, said:
anything or words of like meaning) either defender may designate the play from dummy."
Either East or West may designate, but they may not confer,
and he must of course designate a card that can legally be played from dummy, i.e. (any) one of the hearts.
Again - what is the point?
If this is this intent of the law, I have yet to see a Director enforce it.
I don't understand your question, what is the point? The point of the law or the point of declarer calling for a "suit", or "play" ?
(still learning)
"At last: just calm down, this kind of disrupted boards happens every day in our bridge community. It will always be an inherent part of bridge until we move to a modern platform, and then will we have other hopefully less frequent issues." P Swennson
#50
Posted 2021-June-05, 08:09
L46B2: "If declarer designates a suit but not a rank, the lowest card of the suit indicated is deemed to have been called".
Declarer has designated a suit by implication - L44C: "In playing to a trick, each player must follow suit if possible. This obligation takes precedence over all other requirements of these Laws." (my emphasis). Therefore, declarer has called for the ♥4.
#51
Posted 2021-June-05, 08:47
mycroft, on 2021-June-05, 08:09, said:
L46B2: "If declarer designates a suit but not a rank, the lowest card of the suit indicated is deemed to have been called".
Declarer has designated a suit by implication - L44C: "In playing to a trick, each player must follow suit if possible. This obligation takes precedence over all other requirements of these Laws." (my emphasis). Therefore, declarer has called for the ♥4.
Seems logical to me. But the fact that it doesn't occur to pran suggests the law is not well written.
#52
Posted 2021-June-05, 09:38
I am guessing that this one is a "native English speaker has a small advantage" situation (note, if my Norwegian (or my Spanish for that matter, to pick a language that matters to my daily life) gets as good as Pran's English, I get to criticize. This is not criticism).
The laws could be written better; definitely the laws commission's plan of action could be better. "Mandatory law review preferably every year, but definitely the year after the new edition comes out" would be a good start.
A reminder, of course, that all of L46B specifics are coloured by "In the case of an incomplete or invalid designation, the following restrictions apply (except when declarer's different intention is incontrovertible):" And yeah, that's a minefield for regulation, too, and case law and interpretations.
#53
Posted 2021-June-05, 09:56
pescetom, on 2021-June-05, 08:47, said:
Oh, I have no problem with such allegations, and I might even agree with a few of them.
But I am also aware of the fact that our laws are the result of extensive and careful committee work involving all the major bridge organisations in the world during the ten or so years between revisions.
Now, if a declarer says 'play' in situations like the one under discussion here I understand that to express such indifference to the play that what he really says is: Play any (legal) card - I don't care.
And that is precisely how Law 46B5 tells us to handle such a statement. (If the play really doesn't matter then OK, otherwise I suggest a look into Law 74)
#54
Posted 2021-June-05, 10:39
mycroft, on 2021-June-05, 08:09, said:
L46B2: "If declarer designates a suit but not a rank, the lowest card of the suit indicated is deemed to have been called".
Declarer has designated a suit by implication - L44C: "In playing to a trick, each player must follow suit if possible. This obligation takes precedence over all other requirements of these Laws." (my emphasis). Therefore, declarer has called for the ♥4.
It behooves rule makers that there are distinctions to be coped with: the situation is a lead, playing to the lead, and commands to dummy to participate in the play.
When following to a trick, 'play' can be construed in the vein of following suit (as Mycroft pointed out) but when leading, 'play' becomes a command for dummy to participate in the play; similarly, when dummy is void of the suit led, 'play' becomes a command for dummy to participate in the play.
It could be said it is unwise to conflate the distinctions.
My view is that it is not a good idea for declarer to command dummy to participate in the play due to the fact that being declarer's agent he must then do so:
An intentional breach of law which must have disciplinary consequences. My thinking is that the consequence be a penalty** trick from tricks subsequently won on the board.
**When a defender exercises his right to designate dummy's card doing so gives inferences to declarer that might be particularly useful. Hence it is better for a brutal penalty to stamp out commands to participate in the play altogether and not have to worry about penalties.
#55
Posted 2021-June-05, 11:48
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#56
Posted 2021-June-05, 12:15
blackshoe, on 2021-June-05, 11:48, said:
Don't overlook that Law 46 reflects more than 100 years of traditional terminology.
#57
Posted 2021-June-05, 12:21
It's not a good thing this will never happen. It may not be a bad thing either; the number of times this causes an issue even in theory, never mind at the table, is negligible, and there are much more dangerous things to worry about (even more dangerous things to worry about in what the Laws "allow" or "might mean if you read it oddly, but not incorrectly".)
And I'm not slamming your utopia, either - I have my own windmills I tilt at (some of which are even agreed to by people who *could* make a difference, but don't seem to think they need to put their clout behind it directly). This just isn't one of mine, because I don't see where it would improve things enough for me to saddle up.
#58
Posted 2021-June-05, 12:59
mycroft, on 2021-June-05, 12:21, said:
It's not a good thing this will never happen. It may not be a bad thing either; the number of times this causes an issue even in theory, never mind at the table, is negligible, and there are much more dangerous things to worry about (even more dangerous things to worry about in what the Laws "allow" or "might mean if you read it oddly, but not incorrectly".)
And I'm not slamming your utopia, either - I have my own windmills I tilt at (some of which are even agreed to by people who *could* make a difference, but don't seem to think they need to put their clout behind it directly). This just isn't one of mine, because I don't see where it would improve things enough for me to saddle up.
I would certainly prefer that utopia to the present innocuous mess, although I agree with you that it is neither a particularly good solution nor anywhere near the top of my list of law problems.
I don't agree that the problem is in readers who lack native English: the law ignores the obvious contextual framework suggested by axman and was clearly never reviewed by anyone asking simple basic questions like jillybean does.
#59
Posted 2021-June-05, 13:28
blackshoe, on 2021-June-03, 07:11, said:
Yes, fine, except for super annoying. I would quit the game if I had to contend with this. And I do not understand why it does not mean play anything.
#60
Posted 2021-June-05, 18:28
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean