[maris oren]

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Uith norths 4 spade should he bid 1 ♠ or double (after W bid of 1 ♥

souths bid of 1 ♣-short clubs- 2+ 12-21 points

[DavidKok]

A negative double is completely standard here. Traditionally 1♠ shows at least five. The more modern approach is to double holding 4 or more spades, and to bid 1♠ when holding 3 or fewer. But this treatment requires discussion, especially regarding the followups.

[Douglas43]

I agree with David. Double to show (exactly) 4 spades

[apollo1201]

The S suit is not great but so is your H stopper.

You have so far not enough info to be sure that NT would play better than S, should partner have a fit.

I therefore see no reason to hide your S suit and bid 1S or X depending on your methods. The three existing ones are:
- X is 4S, 1S is 5+: eaases competitive actions or getting to the 5-3 but obligés passing with 8-10/11 and no H stopper
- 1S is 4+ and X is values but no stopper (less pressure in opener to balance or bid)
- the more modern one is to reverse those 2 bids so that you benefit from a « transfer » putting opener on lead to right side the contract and allow an acceptance of the X transfer to show 3-cd support only

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

show the 4 card spade suit, how you do this is depend on agreement.
X to show 4 and 1S showing 5+
or 1S to show 4+
or X to show 4+

With kind regards
Marlowe

[pescetom]

apollo1201, on 2021-July-19, 23:45, said:

The S suit is not great but so is your H stopper.

You have so far not enough info to be sure that NT would play better than S, should partner have a fit.

I therefore see no reason to hide your S suit and bid 1S or X depending on your methods. The three existing ones are:
- X is 4S, 1S is 5+: eaases competitive actions or getting to the 5-3 but obligés passing with 8-10/11 and no H stopper
- 1S is 4+ and X is values but no stopper (less pressure in opener to balance or bid)
- the more modern one is to reverse those 2 bids so that you benefit from a « transfer » putting opener on lead to right side the contract and allow an acceptance of the X transfer to show 3-cd support only

If a 1♤ acceptance of the X transfer shows just 3=card (or 3+card?) support, how do things proceed?

[DavidKok]

pescetom, on 2021-July-20, 10:26, said:

If a 1♤ acceptance of the X transfer shows just 3=card (or 3+card?) support, how do things proceed?

1♠ = exactly 3 spades, any hand (you can exclude the 18-19 NT if you wish), forcing
1NT = 2 or fewer spades, to play (typically 12-14 balanced, but can for example be 1=4=3=5 with a weak hand)
2♣ = 5(+) clubs, unbalanced, 2- spades, to play
2♦ = reverse, modern systems may wish to include 18-19 NT
2♥ = strong spade raise
2♠ = 4-card support, minimum
2NT = 18-19 NT (subject to previous system choices). Alternatively, you can reserve this bid for unbalanced 4(+) spades 5(+) clubs (or 4-(41)-4 if appropriate) non-minimum hands

[hrothgar]

You have no ruffing values, lots of 10 and 9s, a so-so spade suit, and a heart stopper

I'm bidding 1NT

[apollo1201]

DavidKok, on 2021-July-20, 13:12, said:

1♠ = exactly 3 spades, any hand (you can exclude the 18-19 NT if you wish), forcing
1NT = 2 or fewer spades, to play (typically 12-14 balanced, but can for example be 1=4=3=5 with a weak hand)
2♣ = 5(+) clubs, unbalanced, 2- spades, to play
2♦ = reverse, modern systems may wish to include 18-19 NT
2♥ = strong spade raise
2♠ = 4-card support, minimum
2NT = 18-19 NT (subject to previous system choices). Alternatively, you can reserve this bid for unbalanced 4(+) spades 5(+) clubs (or 4-(41)-4 if appropriate) non-minimum hands

Thanks David for this scheme. Indeed the only usually accepted fup is 2S to show the 12-14 4cd support. Other fups and subsequent rebids by responder have many possibilities such as is 1S forcing, can 1S be balanced, does 1/2NT deny 3-cd, considering responder showed more than absolutely minimal value, should 2NT be 18-19 or 15-17 with sg S…

[mikeh]

hrothgar, on 2021-July-20, 13:19, said:

You have no ruffing values, lots of 10 and 9s, a so-so spade suit, and a heart stopper

I'm bidding 1NT

You can get back to notrump after finding a spade fit. You can’t get back to spades after you bid 1N. Therefore the flexible bid is double.

[mikeh]

DavidKok, on 2021-July-20, 13:12, said:

1♠ = exactly 3 spades, any hand (you can exclude the 18-19 NT if you wish), forcing
1NT = 2 or fewer spades, to play (typically 12-14 balanced, but can for example be 1=4=3=5 with a weak hand)
2♣ = 5(+) clubs, unbalanced, 2- spades, to play
2♦ = reverse, modern systems may wish to include 18-19 NT
2♥ = strong spade raise
2♠ = 4-card support, minimum
2NT = 18-19 NT (subject to previous system choices). Alternatively, you can reserve this bid for unbalanced 4(+) spades 5(+) clubs (or 4-(41)-4 if appropriate) non-minimum hands

I agree with most of this. However, playing 2H as a strong spade raise is inefficient. Most experts would play 2H as any really strong hand….responder makes the cheapest descriptive call and opener clarifies his hand type on the next round. He may well have…indeed he likely does have….a strong spade raise but he may also hold a powerhouse club hand and is hoping to find 3N or a high level club contract.

[DavidKok]

Thank you for the improvement. I seem to have messed up trying to simplify the response scheme - in my partnership we reserve 2♦ for generic strong hands and 2♥ specifically shows spades. If 2♦ is a real reverse you need some place for the generic strong hands to go. Either way there seems to be an abundance of bidding space, so I'm sure the auction will be smooth sailing from here.

[pescetom]

DavidKok, on 2021-July-20, 13:12, said:

1♠ = exactly 3 spades, any hand (you can exclude the 18-19 NT if you wish), forcing
1NT = 2 or fewer spades, to play (typically 12-14 balanced, but can for example be 1=4=3=5 with a weak hand)
2♣ = 5(+) clubs, unbalanced, 2- spades, to play
2♦ = reverse, modern systems may wish to include 18-19 NT
2♥ = strong spade raise
2♠ = 4-card support, minimum
2NT = 18-19 NT (subject to previous system choices). Alternatively, you can reserve this bid for unbalanced 4(+) spades 5(+) clubs (or 4-(41)-4 if appropriate) non-minimum hands

Thanks @davidkok and @mikeh for this scheme.
But after 1♤ showing exactly 3 spades any strength, how does responder with 5 cards go about fixing trumps, in particular if he has slam interest and wants to control-bid? A jump to 3♤?

[DavidKok]

The auction thus far: 1♣-(1♥)-X*-(P); 1♠*-(P)-?.
This is a part where my system is somewhat underdeveloped, but I play:

• 1NT - weak, to play, exactly 4 spades
  
• 2♣ - weak, to play, exactly 4 spades and long (5+, because I play 1♣ 2+) clubs
  
• 2♦ - weak, to play, exactly 4 spades and long diamonds
  
• 2♥ - strong, can be 4 spades looking for 3NT, can be 5(+) spades
  
• 2♠ - weak, 5(+) spades
  
• 2NT - 10-11 balanced, 4 spades
  
• 3♣ - help suit trial, 5(+) spades, weaker than 2♥ followed by 3♣
  
• 3♦ - help suit trial, 5(+) spades, weaker than 2♥ followed by 3♦
  
• 3♥ - heart minisplinter or advance cue, 5(+) spades
  
• 3♠ - non-minimum, 5(+) spades, NF.
  
• 3NT - to play

Your strong slam interest hand would bid 2♥, and then bid a second suit or 3♠ over partner's answer. If you have exactly 4 spades, a long minor and potential SI you have to start with the minor instead of the double of 1♥ because it is impossible to show later without implying a spade fit. I am personally convinced that both of the NF 2m bids are highly inefficient from a theoretical point of view, so if you feel like improving on it that is where I would begin.

[mw64ahw]

DavidKok, on 2021-July-21, 08:55, said:

The auction thus far: 1♣-(1♥)-X*-(P); 1♠*-(P)-?.
This is a part where my system is somewhat underdeveloped, but I play:

• 1NT - weak, to play, exactly 4 spades
• 2♣ - weak, to play, exactly 4 spades and long (5+, because I play 1♣ 2+) clubs
• 2♦ - weak, to play, exactly 4 spades and long diamonds
• 2♥ - strong, can be 4 spades looking for 3NT, can be 5(+) spades
• 2♠ - weak, 5(+) spades
• 2NT - 10-11 balanced, 4 spades
• 3♣ - help suit trial, 5(+) spades, weaker than 2♥ followed by 3♣
• 3♦ - help suit trial, 5(+) spades, weaker than 2♥ followed by 3♦
• 3♥ - heart minisplinter or advance cue, 5(+) spades
• 3♠ - non-minimum, 5(+) spades, NF.
• 3NT - to play

Your strong slam interest hand would bid 2♥, and then bid a second suit or 3♠ over partner's answer. If you have exactly 4 spades, a long minor and potential SI you have to start with the minor instead of the double of 1♥ because it is impossible to show later without implying a spade fit. I am personally convinced that both of the NF 2m bids are highly inefficient from a theoretical point of view, so if you feel like improving on it that is where I would begin.

How about using 2♥ as the limit/min bid, which then provides space for a 3-way game try and 3♥/3♠ to show the intermediate/strong hands respectively followed by cue-bidding with slam interest.
Also would you use a direct 4♠ to show Min opposite Min?

[DavidKok]

I don't fully understand. You are saying direct 3♥/♠ as SI? But then we start control bidding uncomfortably high, by using 2♥ we save one level. Also I didn't mention 4♠, what is the auction you are thinking of?
At any rate this is a weak part of my bidding system, so you are probably better off finding a second source before committing to a structure.

[mikeh]

pescetom, on 2021-July-21, 08:32, said:

Thanks @davidkok and @mikeh for this scheme.
But after 1♤ showing exactly 3 spades any strength, how does responder with 5 cards go about fixing trumps, in particular if he has slam interest and wants to control-bid? A jump to 3♤?

Responder cue bids with most gf hands. The exceptions are when he is simply placing the contract, having no slam interest. So he can bid 4S or 3N over 1S with no interest in any other contract opposite a 1S rebid by opener.

Note that opener only bids 1S with 3 spades and a minimum opening hand. With significant extras, opener doesn’t hold a strong 1N bid (unless playing weak notrump), so will make whatever call he would have made had it gone 1m (p) 1S (p)


After responder’s cue, as always, opener makes the cheapest descriptive bid. Cheapest because he wants to preserve as much room as possible for responder to clarify why he cuebid. If responder next bids spades, then he has 5+ and interest in some contract other than 4S. It doesn’t by any means rule out 4S….it simply says that responder has some unspecified degree of interest in something else, usually 3N or, more commonly, slam or rarely grand slam.

[mw64ahw]

DavidKok, on 2021-July-21, 10:21, said:

I don't fully understand. You are saying direct 3♥/♠ as SI? But then we start control bidding uncomfortably high, by using 2♥ we save one level. Also I didn't mention 4♠, what is the auction you are thinking of?
At any rate this is a weak part of my bidding system, so you are probably better off finding a second source before committing to a structure.

I'm saying that a strong hand versus a minimum opener has de facto slam potential. Likewise for an Intermediate hand opposite an Intermediate hand. 4/5♠ should be safe in either case so you can use Italian cue-bids to establish initial slam viability from 3NT to 4♥ and can sign-off in 4♠ or continue key-card showing/cue-bidding/sign-off in 5♠ or bid the slam if desired. I don't think you need the additional space by using 2♥ so this can be used as the Limit/Min bid to establish whether game is feasible and the strain. As it stands you may miss game using 3♠ as NF. Regarding 4♠ I was just interested if you envisaged any hand shape/strength that would sign-off directly.

My own structure is Transfer-Walsh based with 1♠ as GF which remains after 1♥ interference. Completing the transfer after the X shows 3♠ and a limited hand, but I like the idea of using 2♥ for a limit response.

[DavidKok]

mw64ahw, on 2021-July-21, 13:56, said:

I'm saying that a strong hand versus a minimum opener has de facto slam potential. Likewise for an Intermediate hand opposite an Intermediate hand. 4/5♠ should be safe in either case so you can use Italian cue-bids to establish initial slam viability from 3NT to 4♥ and can sign-off in 4♠ or continue key-card showing/cue-bidding/sign-off in 5♠ or bid the slam if desired. I don't think you need the additional space by using 2♥ so this can be used as the Limit/Min bid to establish whether game is feasible and the strain. As it stands you may miss game using 3♠ as NF. Regarding 4♠ I was just interested if you envisaged any hand shape/strength that would sign-off directly.

My own structure is Transfer-Walsh based with 1♠ as GF which remains after 1♥ interference. Completing the transfer after the X shows 3♠ and a limited hand, but I like the idea of using 2♥ for a limit response.

Over the double my 1♠ is not a minimum, unlike mikeh's. This means that opener still has a wide range. I think this pays off when responder is weak with 5 or more spades - if opener does not mention the 3-card support in a strong hand immediately it can be hard to tell if we have established a fit if the opponents intervene. One good (better?) alternative is to have several different strong responses - 2♦, 2♥, 2NT maybe - clarifying not just strength but also spade length, so that 1♠ can be NF.

Jumping with SI looks quite bad to me. Having extra space to describe the level of slam interest is very helpful, to the point of being vital, if 1♠ is unlimited. Not to mention that I absolutely loathe jumping on slam auctions unless the jump is very narrowly defined. The 3♠ bid you mention is very rare, most hands with game interest will bid 3♣, 3♦ or 3♥, so that 3♠ is tightly defined by negative inference. Keep in mind that all these bids are very limited - about 10-11 points of playing strength.

Responder can't jump to 4♠, opener is practically unlimited. Any (minimum, shapely) hand that decides that 4♠ is the right spot would have jumped on the previous round. 1♣-(1♥)-2♠ is 8-11 with 6(+) NF and higher bids in spades are weaker and longer.