[bravejason]

Playing Standard American, an uncontested auction begins:
1D - 1H
1S -

Responder has 4 or more spades. How does responder:
1. show a weak hand and a desire to stop bidding?
2. show more than a minimum, but not enough to invite game?
3. invite game?
4. force to game?
5. show slam interest?

[AL78]

1. 2♠.
2. If you don't have enough to invite game, you have a minimum so give cheapest support, 2♠. If you hold better than a dirt minimum and game is possible, partner will bid again.
3. 3♠.
4. Go through fourth suit forcing before raising spades or bid 4♠.
5. 4♣/♦ cue bid, Blackwood. You could go through 4SF then raise spades as in 4., opener should cue bid if they have a strong opener.

[sfi]

I would add that pass is an option for #1. 1S is no more or less forcing than 1D was, so if you responded 1H on a subminimum you can pass 1S. Partner will be surprised but will understand when they see your hand.

That being said, with any normal responding hand - even a modest 6-count - you should raise to 2S. Partner may not need much more than support to make their hand look really good.

[jillybean]

1. Pass with a weak hand and 4 card support
2. 2♠
3. 3♠ or 'new minor forcing' 'fourth suit forcing' which is often played as invitational+. (Not part of pure "Standard American")
1♦ 1♥ 1♠ 2♣* is a "new minor" 4th suit and asks partner to further describe their hand. You will bid or raise spades after partners response. This also has the advantage of giving you more information which may allow you to upgrade your hand from inivational to game forcing,

1♦ 1♥ 1♠ 2♣* 2♥ 2♠ is invitational with 4 spades.

If your auction starts 1M:2M , please be aware that there are many better game try sequences than the 1M 2M 3M new players are taught.

4.1♦ 1♥ 1♠ 4♠

5.1♦ 1♥ 1♠ 2♣* 2♥ 4♠.


I found Standard American to be a difficult and imprecise system to bid slams or even games and find 2/1 easier to play as it allows partners to describe their hands better than in SA.

[Stephen Tu]

jillybean, on 2021-August-14, 20:08, said:

1. Pass with a weak hand and 4 card support

As previously mentioned this should only be done with sub-normal responding hands. If you have like a 6 count you should still raise, partner can have distributional hands that warrant bidding game opposite a fit but don't want to jump shift to 2S and also force game opposite a misfit. Also this works to obstruct the opponents. Passing is only usually done when 1H was a sub-normal response, and occasionally with very min hands and 3 cds + distributional (preferring a 1s Moysian to declaring 1nt).

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3. 3♠ or 'new minor forcing' which is often played as invitational+. (Not part of pure "Standard American")

2c is not normally called "new minor forcing". The term "New minor forcing" (NMF) is normally only applied to the situation after a 1nt rebid by opener, not a suit rebid.

2c here is called "fourth suit forcing & artificial", or just "fourth suit forcing". It is part of the general principle of new suits by unpassed responder being forcing (except after 1nt rebid). In some regions of the world it is most common to play this bid as game-forcing; in others certain continuations are invitational only. Usually you want either jumps to be inv with going through 4th suit GF, or jumps to be GF with going through 4th suit normally inv.

The most common method in the modern game is to play 3S as invitational, and 4th suit followed by raising spades as forcing. But it's also playable to reverse these two meanings which was more common in older days (Aces Scientific era). Also a more modern treatment that has some popularity is to play both 2c and 2d as artificial, a treatment called "XYZ", 2c being a *puppet* to 2d (to sign off in diamonds or make an invite, but *not* querying partner to further describe their hand), with 2d being the artificial GF (replacing "4th suit game forcing") that does query partner for further description). Since invites now go through 2c, this frees up the jump to 3S to be forcing again, which can be useful for slam tries when no splinter is held and is less bulky than a jump all the way to 4S.

Quote

I found Standard American to be a difficult and imprecise system to bid slams or even games and find 2/1 easier to play as it allows partners to describe their hands better than in SA.

2/1 really has no practical effect on these 1-over-1 sequences vs SA. It offers no advantages here, the problems are the same. You still have to decide on 2nd round jumps inv or forcing, 4th suit GF or only one round, or XYZ, or some other less common homebrew scheme.

[DavidKok]

I prefer fourth suit to be GF, for much the same reasons that playing a 2/1 bid as GF is helpful. 1♦-1♥; 1♠-4♠ to show a strong hand is a suboptimal agreement, in my opinion. Opener might well have a nice 19-count (and even if you would have jumped to 2♠ with 17, they may have a very suitable 16-count) and slam investigation becomes impossible. And jumping after bidding fourth suit is even worse.
For me the answers are:

• 2♠, we 'always' give a courtesy raise. The 1♠ bid is practically unlimited, and if we have 4-card support we ought to raise even on a subminimum, if only on account of the Law of Total Tricks.
  
• There is no such thing, 2♠ again.
  
• 3♠, although some would add 3♣ as a spade-showing bid (for me it would be a natural bid, invitational but NF, denying spade support).
  
• 2♣, fourth suit game forcing. You can rebid 2♠ on the next round to show your support (or, if partner bids 2NT or up, 3♠).
  
• Also 2♣, followed by a cheap spade bid. Alternatively you can splinter with 4♣ or jump to 4♦ with a 4-card spade suit, diamond support and a doubleton club (this basically guarantees 4=4=3=2 on the auction) if the hand is suitable, but the vast majority of hands will go through 2♣. After 2♣ you establish your spade fit, and then the partnership initiates control bidding. By the time you have reached 4X someone can ask for aces.

As Stephen mentioned there are modern tools like XYZ/2-Way Checkback which can help clarify the situation, changing the meaning of some of these sequences.

[jillybean]

1. Yes, as noted.

3. Absolutely correct, I was confusing xyz and nmf

I didn't intend my comment regarding 2/1 and slam going auctions to be taken in a 1x 1y 1z context but as a general comment to say there is an alternative to SA and that I found it easier in game+ auctions than SA.

[Douglas43]

I can't answer for SAYC, but for comparison only, this is what I would do playing Acol:

1. Pass (I should add that I play a 2S jump rebid by opener as not 100% FG, allowing a bail-out via lebensohl, so the upper limit on my 1S is a bit lower than is standard in Acol)
2. 2♠
3. 3♠
4. 4♠ is a useful game try. Alternatively 2♣ fourth suit forcing, followed by bidding spades which is FG
5. 2♣ fourth suit forcing, followed by bidding spades, or use a strong jump shift on the first round with a really good hand

[DavidKok]

The issue isnt 2♠ GF or not, but that you've shot yourself in the foot by taking up valuable bidding space.

[mycroft]

12-21 (possibly more, two suiters, especially 4M-5m two-suiters are a hand you want to avoid opening 2♣ on) is such a huge range that responder doesn't get to make those decisions (yet). Her job is to show her strength so Opener knows what to do. (Yes, 1♠ denies some of the top end, as 2♠ is 100% forcing even on a hand that was running from 1♦; but still 12-good 19 or so).

So, instead of answering your question, because you're not playing a limited opener system, here's what responder should do with 4 spades:

• pass: I shouldn't have responded, but I *really* don't like diamonds. Note: I'd expect this to be the 3=4=1=5 or 3=5=1=4 more often than 4-card support; 4-and-crossruff, even with only a King, still has a play for game opposite the maximum 1♠ call.
  
• 2♠: minimum. 6-9 or so. You still have enough range that partner can offer several kinds of invitations which you can use to evaluate your hand for game, but if partner passes, fine; if partner bids game, also fine. (The big question is what happens when it continues p-p-3♣ (or 2NT, or X).)
  
• 3♠: limit raise. Not as much fun as when partner opened 1♠, because it's an 8-card fit, but partner will evaluate based on that.
  
• 2♣: In North America, almost always played as a game force+. You will bid spades at your next opportunity, to show the fit; if partner limits his hand, and you're minimum, you can bid 4; otherwise, at the minimum level to see whether partner has extras. Some form of "serious slam try" is helpful here (one of the biggest issues with Standard bidding (including 2/1 GF, not that it's any different in this auction) is showing "if you have slam interest, I do too" versus "you opened/game-forced, let's look for slam".)

There are some really rare calls, I guess, that show support:

• 4♣: stiff club, 4=4=4=1 or 4=5=3=1 or the like, minimum game forcing values.
  
• 4♦: 4=4=4=1 or 4=4=5=0 and more interested in showing diamond fit than club shortness (I guess you can play this as splinter too, if 1♠ could have a balanced hand. It won't be 4=4=3=2, though, or he would have raised hearts). Again, very limited strength.
  4♠: I don't know, 5=6=0=2 and an Ace? I guess there should be some meaning for this call, but it had better be "show *everything* about your hand".

You can probably map these ranges to your question, as long as what you tack "opposite a minimum opener" to the end of all your statements. But you don't know that partner has a minimum opener yet. So, your job is to announce a fit, and limit *your* hand; partner will then be able to invite or force to game or slam.

[nige1]

Pass/2♠ = Weak hand and a desire to stop bidding.
2♠ = Minimum, but not enough to invite game
3♠ = Invite game.
2♣ =4SF =. Force to game/slam interest.
RKC = Slam interest.
3♣= Splinter shows shortage and slam interest
4♣ = Exclusion with void and slam interest,

---

[pescetom]

I agree with Stephen Tu's comment that only XYZ or a similar convention can save your bacon here, but I am still surprised and disappointed that a novice/beginner is subjected to a complicated and inefficient old system like Standard American. As JB says, a modern 2/1 is simpler and more efficient.

[mycroft]

...and has exactly the same auction with exactly the same questions.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you in general, just that there is literally nothing in 2/1 that affects this auction (that you can't decide to play in SA).

[jillybean]

mycroft, on 2021-August-15, 13:51, said:

...and has exactly the same auction with exactly the same questions.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you in general, just that there is literally nothing in 2/1 that affects this auction (that you can't decide to play in SA).

Yes, of course. What I am saying is, outside the limits of this auction, I struggled with SA for a long time, and found 2/1 to be an easier and more efficient system.

[Douglas43]

DavidKok, on 2021-August-15, 06:08, said:

The issue isnt 2♠ GF or not, but that you've shot yourself in the foot by taking up valuable bidding space.

The last time we used an opener's jump to 2♠ was about two years ago, my partner had a (strong) 5-1-1-6 shape, and it is i.m.o. most effective on hands with considerable shape

[Douglas43]

As I was one of the posters who offered 4♠ as an answer and some experienced players prefer not to use it, here is some context on why I put it forward. My apology, I had missed that this is the beginner and improver forum, and should have explained for the benefit of less experienced readers, as I certainly wouldn't recommend that an improver use it indiscriminately.

I would bid 4♠ on a responding hand that is roughly a weak no-trump with poor controls, as a "fast arrival" warning that my hand is poor for slam purposes. Something like Jxxx, KJxx, KJ, QJx or Jxxx, KQxxx, Kx, Kx.

Going via Fourth Suit Forcing (or splintering) shows a better hand and at least willing to cooperate with a slam try. After 1♦ 1♥ 1♠ 2♣* 2♥ 2♠ which forces to game, opener can bid 4♠ (minimum hand fast arrival), 3♠ (not minimum, leaving room for responder to make a try) or show extras and slam interest with another bid such as 4♣ splinter, or 3♦ (good suit) or 3♥ (partial fit in responder's suit)

Again, this is Acol not SAYC or 2/1 and appreciate that North American players might use different paths

[mycroft]

I find 2/1 GF simpler and easier. "When can partner pass below game after a 2/1" is a very difficult thing to get right; and when one (or none!) have it right, the result is +170 (or, worse, +190). Embarrassing.

However, 2/1 creates its own mess with the Forcing 1NT (yes, other systems that aren't necessarily 2/1 use a Forcing NT. But Standard doesn't) that is many things, but "simpler and easier" is not two of them.

Also, on average, you get 2 or 3 2/1 (as GF) auctions a session. So yeah, simpler and easier, and rare. But, as JLall said years ago, "just so comfortable when it happens".

Also, to effectively *use* the advantage of 2/1 (beyond, well, "avoiding +190") is not, in fact, "simple" or "easy". Basically 90% of your threads in the last few months are wonderful examples of this. It might be "easier" than Standard (in that it's *impossible* to do it in Standard because you need that room to GF), but not simpler (especially if it's impossible to do - "nothing" is definitely easier than "something". Less effective, though).

I am not the person that says "2/1 is too hard to teach new players". It's not that much more confusing, and as we said, in many places simpler than Standard. And the number of players who both can and are willing to play Standard, is going down, so the benefit of the two-step process is effectively nil. But I am saying that on 90% of hands, Standard with the "same" gadgets as 2/1, but without 2/1 GF, produce the same problems and resultant auctions.

[Note that that's "2/1 with the necessary gadgets" vs "Standard with the same necessary gadgets", not "2/1 with the necessary gadgets" vs "the committee-designed elephant that is SAYC". There's no reason to learn SAYC - even the people who play it don't know it.]

[Winstonm]

The big question is how novice is novice?

For someone who has no idea but would like to be introduced to the game I would teach them basic Goren with 4 card majors and forcing jump raises with strong jump shifts. That is all a true novice needs to know.

A beginner is a little more advanced and it is only to beginners and better would I bother with either SAYC or 2/1.