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What's Your Choice double trouble?

#1 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-December-04, 20:35

Playing imp pairs using simple 2/1 bidding with negative doubles through 3S, what is your choice here. 1C is presumably 3 or more clubs.


"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#2 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2021-December-04, 20:55

if it walks like a duck...
3NT

Anything else might easily lead to disaster when our most obvious contract (3NT) makes. An adventurous spirit might lead one to try 3d but do not even consider this if playing with a bot because you will never convince it you do not really have diamonds.
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#3 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2021-December-05, 03:56

Apart from 3NT another option is pass and await a reopening double, but the poor quality of our hearts suggests that we''ll only get one trump trick and might only collect 200 / 500, so I'm with gszes
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#4 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2021-December-05, 09:53

Douglas said it, K862 is not a trump holding to defend 2HX. So like George says, 3NT, what else.

That doesn’t prevent partner from moving over this, if they feel their hand is safer played somewhere else.

At least I’ve described my hand rather well, some flatt-ish 12-15 hand, not interested in S (yeah, I know I have no stopper there, but so does my fellow counterpart in the other room), with a decent enough H stopper.
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#5 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-December-05, 14:45

View Postapollo1201, on 2021-December-05, 09:53, said:

Douglas said it, K862 is not a trump holding to defend 2HX. So like George says, 3NT, what else.

That doesn't prevent partner from moving over this, if they feel their hand is safer played somewhere else.

At least I've described my hand rather well, some flatt-ish 12-15 hand, not interested in S (yeah, I know I have no stopper there, but so does my fellow counterpart in the other room), with a decent enough H stopper.


What if you held K9xx of hearts?

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#6 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-December-05, 14:49

View PostDouglas43, on 2021-December-05, 03:56, said:

Apart from 3NT another option is pass and await a reopening double, but the poor quality of our hearts suggests that we''ll only get one trump trick and might only collect 200 / 500, so I'm with gszes


I think there is risk that partner could hold too many hearts to reopen with a double. However, at the same time if he can then opponents won't have a great fit, at best a 6-2.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#7 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-December-06, 01:10

The answer is to obvious. gszes get +4 for obvious answer. I get zero for think out of box answer. lol :)

what if distribution is?



will north bid again or trust partners bid 3NT?

Happy Christmas every body. Peace on earth.
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#8 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2021-December-06, 04:03

View PostLBengtsson, on 2021-December-06, 01:10, said:

The answer is to obvious. gszes get +4 for obvious answer. I get zero for think out of box answer. lol :)

what if distribution is?



will north bid again or trust partners bid 3NT?

Happy Christmas every body. Peace on earth.

Then you go down on a spade lead, or A and a spade shift. It has happened before, and it will happen again.

If West leads a small heart, you take 12 tricks and partner will think that you underbid. That also has happened before, and it also will happen again.

Rik
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#9 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-December-06, 04:07

View PostLBengtsson, on 2021-December-06, 01:10, said:



will north bid again or trust partners bid 3NT?
North should rebid 4 over 3NT. Both minor suits are slow. Also it is extremely likely partner has at least 5 minor suit cards for the 3NT bid (at most 3 spades and likely no more than 5 hearts), so there is either a 9-card fit or a double fit, and possibly both. Also: slam might be on, give partner something like Qxx, KJxx, Ax, Axxx and I would like to be in 6 even with the wasted values in hearts. Although I guess opposite that hand it is impossible to actually find the slam. Maybe Axx, KJxx, Qx, Axxx has a better chance of finding the good 6.
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#10 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-December-06, 05:27

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-December-06, 04:07, said:

North should rebid 4 over 3NT. Both minor suits are slow. Also it is extremely likely partner has at least 5 minor suit cards for the 3NT bid (at most 3 spades and likely no more than 5 hearts), so there is either a 9-card fit or a double fit, and possibly both. Also: slam might be on, give partner something like Qxx, KJxx, Ax, Axxx and I would like to be in 6 even with the wasted values in hearts. Although I guess opposite that hand it is impossible to actually find the slam. Maybe Axx, KJxx, Qx, Axxx has a better chance of finding the good 6.


I thought this also, David. Its possible South has different hand than the ones you have shown, and its difficult (imo) to stop in 5m missing two aces. 4 shows 6-5 yes, it should do imo, but does it show minimum or extras? maybe 3NT is best contract at imp pairs? I agree North passing 3NT is 95%+ not to happen with 6-5 shape - I would bid also.
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#11 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-December-06, 07:21

In my partnership 4m is almost always forcing, and it would certainly be on this auction. My partner once explained it as "we don't run from 3NT out of fear". To me 4 shows a strong hand, slam-going (but with this particular hand we intend to apply the brakes on the next round). In some sense we do have extras, they are just entirely positional.

At MPs I think North has a difficult decision over 3NT, because it is very plausible that one or both minor suits will run, or South has a double heart stopper, and 3NT might well take 10 or more tricks. At IMPs I care about none of that, and am happy to land in 5m= with the field in 3NT+1/+2. Bidding on has the twin upsides of scoring well when 3NT goes several off or getting to a making slam. The fact that both minor suits are slow, missing aces and a queen, hints at problems setting up the long suits in 3NT. Call it insurance if you will, it's just good IMP odds.

P.S.: If partner has concentrated values in hearts and little else I reckon both 3NT and 5m are going off, so we are unlikely to lose much by bidding on.
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#12 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-December-06, 11:08

You don't "pull" 3NT to 4m. Anybody who does that more than once is in "find a better partner" territory, anybody who believes you're doing it either has been trained by "find a better partner" partners (and needs to be re-educated), or is also in that territory. 4m here is forcing.

It doesn't necessarily show extras - just the kind of shape that thinks either that 5m will play better than 3NT (given that partner knows about the majors better than I do, that should be rare) or that 6m is on despite the wasted heart cards (which could be QJxx or JT9x rather than a fast stopper). Shape, not strength, again.
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#13 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-December-07, 11:46

View Postmycroft, on 2021-December-06, 11:08, said:

You don't "pull" 3NT to 4m. Anybody who does that more than once is in "find a better partner" territory, anybody who believes you're doing it either has been trained by "find a better partner" partners (and needs to be re-educated), or is also in that territory.


And if partner thinks 4 after 3NT is Gerber? B-)
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#14 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-December-07, 11:50

View Postpescetom, on 2021-December-07, 11:46, said:

And if partner thinks 4 after 3NT is Gerber? B-)


Then re-education should involve a baseball bat
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#15 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-December-07, 19:05

Well, you still don't have to worry about partner passing it, ¿quineg?

(using a different source than usual. I have Issues with Card, but the device is useful.)
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