[pilowsky]

This hand came up in todays club game.
Matchpoints. 2/1 with 3 weak 2's etc.
I've toned my bidding down to over-exuberant from psychotically optimistic because my Thursday partner has a hair-trigger for 3NT, but with 3 losers I felt 2♣ was fair.
The median opening was 4♥.
What would you suggest?

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What happened at our table.

Spoiler

For 96.67% because exactly the same thing happened at another table.
My partner North caught the ♠ 5 from East.

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[mw64ahw]

I’d call it a 4 looser hand, but if you play Namyats start with 4♣.The slam try should be accepted, but with the right methods you will find the exposed ♣ suit

[AL78]

In the UK, I don't think the regulations permit opening a hand like that with an artificial strong 2 opening. I'd probably open 4♥ if not playing Namyats. You got lucky.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

what to do with a 9 card suit is ...

I would go with 4H, I dont play Namyats. If you do, use it, 4H is heavy,
you are white against red, and the only factor for strengthening the bid
is, 2nd position, so Namyats looks perfect.

If you agreed to play gambling, with a running major, ... go for it, it
is not likely you will have another opportunity.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[LBengtsson]

With one red opp. passed I will try 1♥ here. I think it is too strong for Namyats, even though it is a 9-10 trick hand with normal breaks. ♣Q10x is also a potential trick. The problem with Namyats here is the solid suit. Most Namyats I have seen is where one honour is missing from the major with an outside trick such as an ace or king/queen.

[pescetom]

A clear Namyats for me. And I wouldn't like to be without that option, given the ominous spades void.

[mycroft]

I open 1♥. I do play Namyats, but it's a *very specific* bid, and this hand doesn't qualify. Partner with 3 tricks will play in 4-making-6, because 8+3=11. And there's not enough room to ask "do you actually have 9 tricks rather than 8?"

And 2♣ did what we expect it to - the colours allowed you to bid 4♥, but it still put partner in a hopeless situation. Trusting souls believe north and find a non-spade lead. West doubling 6NT might get a non-spade lead. If it's a diamond, oh well. If it's a round card...

Those that (in the ACBL) properly Alert their tendency to open "overstrength preempts" are more likely in this auction to get a heart(!) lead. Would I find it? Not sure. But I do know at least three people at my level who probably would.

[mikeh]

Here’s a rule that might help the OP avoid fatuous 2C openings: when one opens 2C one should be 99.999% sure that the opponents cannot make a slam except for nearly impossibly freakish distribution. Here, fairly normal hands would let them make a grand slam.

Another rule: never open 2C on distributional hands unless there is a real chance that opening at the one level carries a realistic chance of missing a good game.

We have 11 hcp and a spade void. The chances of 1H being passed out are less than zero….ok, I exaggerate a little

I’d open 1H in second seat. In 1st I’d open namyats if I still played it, which I don’t

In 3rd or 4th I’d open 4H., although the likelihood of p p p to me is minuscule.

[DavidKok]

I always thought people play Namyats as a necessary evil to keep their 4M opening clean. This is not a muddy 4M opening, so it's not a Namyats. But maybe I'm being too simplistic.

Anyway, 2♣ is awful. 1♥ is completely safe. I'd consider 4♥ in fourth seat, but it never goes (P)-P-(P)-? if you have this hand. Also we might still miss a slam on that auction.

[pescetom]

mycroft, on 2021-December-09, 09:04, said:

I open 1♥. I do play Namyats, but it's a *very specific* bid, and this hand doesn't qualify. Partner with 3 tricks will play in 4-making-6, because 8+3=11. And there's not enough room to ask "do you actually have 9 tricks rather than 8?"

It's slightly outside our definition of Namyats too, but I would still downgrade to 4♣ rather than risk 1♥ or 2♣ on this particular hand.
There's room to discover both the solid hearts and the mutual lack of clubs control within 5♥, which would be early enough to stop more often than not, although not here. But yes, North would still not know there were 9.
As it turns out, opening 2♣ with a more collaborative West would allow us to stop in 4♥, but I wouldn't bet on those coincidences and their spades contract might be better than our hearts contract.

[akwoo]

mycroft, on 2021-December-09, 09:04, said:

I open 1♥. I do play Namyats, but it's a *very specific* bid, and this hand doesn't qualify. Partner with 3 tricks will play in 4-making-6, because 8+3=11. And there's not enough room to ask "do you actually have 9 tricks rather than 8?"

In my Precision partnership, 1♥ denies this much playing strength also. So our choices would be an overstrength Namyats or 1♣. I'll go with Namyats.

[Winstonm]

Hands like this are always guesses and my criteria for guesses is to try to make the one least damaging in the long run. Here that to me is 1H. I cannot justify this much playing strength nv v vul for a preempt. It it almost too strong for a red V white preempt though I would do that. It is clearly not a 2C opener unless part of your aims is to screw with your opponents and lose some definition in your bids.

[mcphee]

The passed hand makes 1H an easy choice as a 4H bid makes slam no chance at all when you may make 13 tricks on a good day. Only takes AJ 5th of clubs on a S lead.

[kgr]

mikeh, on 2021-December-09, 09:52, said:

I’d open 1H in second seat. In 1st I’d open namyats if I still played it, which I don’t
In 3rd or 4th I’d open 4H., although the likelihood of p p p to me is minuscule.

If you would play namyats...
Can you explain why you don't open namyats in all seats?
I would think it is a good description of your hand and gives the opps more preempt to find their Spade fit.

[mikeh]

kgr, on 2021-December-10, 07:59, said:

If you would play namyats...
Can you explain why you don't open namyats in all seats?
I would think it is a good description of your hand and gives the opps more preempt to find their Spade fit.

I played various forms of namyats for years. I eventually came to the view that a natural 4m opening was more valuable than using such a bid to show a strong major preempt.

3N, as a minor preempt, is relatively ineffective imo. The main problem is that responder is often unable to bid over an overcall by the opponent sitting over the 3N bid. In addition, 3N allows for both 4C and 4D to be used by the opps artificially. Some play that the bid minor shows a major 2-suiter, distinguishing between hand strengths while others use the choice of minor to distinguish between major quality/length.

As for gambling 3N: it can be effective when it arises. We picked up a slam swing in an important match more than 20 years ago when partner was able to jump to 6D, right-siding the contract, after I opened 3N.

But it’s a net loser, imo. After all, as Fred Gitelman said (I paraphrase), 3N wrong sides 3N!

All of these are low frequency hands, whatever agreements you may have

I used to play 4C as a one-loser namyats and 4D as a solid suit namyats.

We had specialized responses. For example, after 4D, if responder had slam interest he basically always knew opener’s major (since it would be the major in which he held nothing). 4D 5C would show a source of tricks somewhere and promise both minor aces and deny the other major ace, so if opener had a major singleton he could jump to slam…any response of 4S or higher showed slam values and was the lowest of touching aces.

On paper it was great. In the real world it never…I mean never…happened.

Meanwhile, being able to open 4m is fairly effective and doesn’t give the opps as much bidding space

Because these are rare hands, it’s not imo a big deal, but that’s why I no longer regularly play any namyats

[thepossum]

White versus red 6 or 7 hearts

What's Namyats other than backwards Stayman?

Seriously 2C or 4H

Only problem with going 2C is with a partner like GiB which uses the alleged point count to overrule and go with a different suit, and ignore your clear preference. Is there not a law about going against 2C opener's suit. Fancy thinking you know better than someone opening 2C

[DavidKok]

thepossum, on 2021-December-11, 03:04, said:

Fancy thinking you know better than someone opening 2C

Judging by this discussion, I think GiB likely does know better than the people opening 2♣.

[Cyberyeti]

thepossum, on 2021-December-11, 03:04, said:

White versus red 6 or 7 hearts

What's Namyats other than backwards Stayman?

Seriously 2C or 4H

Only problem with going 2C is with a partner like GiB which uses the alleged point count to overrule and go with a different suit, and ignore your clear preference. Is there not a law about going against 2C opener's suit. Fancy thinking you know better than someone opening 2C

Namyats is like South African Texas, 4♣ is a good 4♥ opener, 4♦ a good 4♠ opener. When I used to play this, we used them very strong and this was borderline, our criteria were that the right 2 aces and a stiff trump gave you decent play for a slam.

2♣ on this hand type is either illegal or requires very good disclosure in some jurisdictions. It's clear from other threads you open 2♣ way too much, and won't listen to people who tell you this.

[pilowsky]

Just to be clear - this is from an actual Australian club game - matchpoints, 2/1 etc.


In the previous post where 2C was opened with a huge club suit I was defending not bidding.
The opponent learned Bridge in the UK - like most people he's a much better player than me.

Cyberyeti and Others said:

2♣ on this hand type is either illegal or requires very good disclosure in some jurisdictions. It's clear from other threads you open 2♣ way too much, and won't listen to people who tell you this.

In retrospect I think 4H is the right bid.

In Australia opening 2♣ as a game forcing bid is completely legal.
But this is clearly a jurisdictional matter.
According to the sky blue regs eating is not permitted (penalty not described) in online games where opponents can see you (one chew per Ace?) but not on BBO where they can't.
As I understand it eating is not illegal in Australia - but I haven't checked.

[thepossum]

Too late to comment
Can't be bothered to argue

And if anyone claims I can't bid 2c they are in for an argument

And I learnt to bid in England. Simple unpretentious and no unnecessary complexity and restrictions

PS involves rhetoric before I have to defend myself