[pilowsky]

What's the best call for South here.

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[Cyberyeti]

Just about worth a 3♥ long suit GT, the two major suit kings give good chances, 2 major jacks and the diamond ace also, particularly if he has a doubleton heart, ♥Kx he will now know is gold dust

[DavidKok]

I play short suit trials, so 3♣ looks right. You could blast 4♠, especially if playing help suit trials (3♥ eats up the bidding space and partner will discount good diamond values. And partner can't pass the ball back to you over 3♥, because there are no steps left). I've never much liked long suit trials over help suit trials.

I don't know what 3♠ means here when I have 2NT available as a 'HCP' game try. I keep insisting it is descriptive/preemptive because it is in other situations, but you don't need the bid on this auction. Maybe 3♠ and 2NT should both be some kind of non-short-suit game try.

With a pickup partner I'd probably blast 4 at IMPs.

[ali quarg]

I play 3-way game tries so
2NT - reverse help suit game try
3♣ - trump suit game try
3♠ - ♣ short suit game try

[LBengtsson]

I would bid 3♦ here. That is the suit you need help. I would not bid 3♥ as if partner then bids 4♠ the opponents could not lead that suit imo. If you bid 3♦ the ops. do not know that you have ♥AQ(98) and they might make an attacking lead of a ♥ into your tenace. Though partner is limited and with the wrong cards 4♠ will not make, though with >7 playing tricks in your own hand, you do not need much from partner to find game.

[helene_t]

DavidKok, on 2022-April-11, 02:38, said:

I play short suit trials, so 3♣ looks right. You could blast 4♠, especially if playing help suit trials (3♥ eats up the bidding space and partner will discount good diamond values. And partner can't pass the ball back to you over 3♥, because there are no steps left). I've never much liked long suit trials over help suit trials.

Good point. The problem with long suit trials is that sometimes you have two long side suits. You rarely have two singletons (and if you have, blasting 4♠ if too weak for a slam try would almost always be reasonable).

As for short suit trials, I think they are a bit more useful when used by responder. If partner has xxxx in clubs he will be enthusiast about a short suit trial, but we could become short in trumps if we get a forcing defense.

An alternative is 2NT asking for a short suit trial. That also gives less away about declarer's hand.

A case for a long suit trial here is that sometimes 4♥ is a better contract than 4♠.

[DavidKok]

One other significant drawback of help suit trials (and, to a lesser extent, of long suit trials) is that if partner rejects the invitation you have just told the opponents that neither side can cover losers in a side suit, which can lead to some hilarious 3♠-1 vs 4♠= swings.
A somewhat popular treatment over 2NT on this auction is "bid the lowest suit in which you would accept a help suit trial, if any". That way you can have your cake and eat it too. Alternatively, you can have responder show shortness instead.

[Douglas43]

Five loser hand. 4♠.

But bear in mind I usually play 4cM and a raise is based on 4 cards about 75% of the time.

[mikeh]

Nobody asked the form of scoring or the vulnerability.

Also we don’t know the methods, but I’m assuming GIB, given that the OP seems to play against robots rather than playing bridge. I have no clue how robots bid these but if forced to guess would think ‘natural’ game tries.

At imps, red, I just bid 4S. Defence is the toughest part of the game and the opening lead on 1S 2S 4S is one of the more difficult auctions against which to lead absent a nice sequence

If I were making a try, absent specialized methods, it would be 3D. I want to be in game opposite an average 2S with diamond help, plus if he has a max, no help in diamonds, but help in hearts, he can bid 3H.

That’s an important point since we often, as helene noted, have two suits in which we want help. Always bid the cheapest, to allow partner to show or deny help in the higher should responder lack help in the cheaper.

[akwoo]

No - GiB claims to play Reverse Kokish (next step is unspecified shortness, everything else is help suit, 2N substituting for spades) game tries. However, its judgement is nonexistent. As far as I can tell, no matter what your game try, it accepts with a max in point count and rejects with a min. (When it makes a Kokish game try, the info can be useful.)

[smerriman]

akwoo, on 2022-April-11, 11:59, said:

However, its judgement is nonexistent. As far as I can tell, no matter what your game try, it accepts with a max in point count and rejects with a min.

Hiding my response just so that I don't derail the thread into a GIB discussion too much:

Spoiler

Basic GIB, pretty much - it rejects with 7- total points, accepts with 9+, and with 8, makes the cheapest return game try, all ignoring what it holds in the game try suit entirely. (So if the auction starts 1♠ - 2♠ - 3♣, it'll bid 3♦ with xxx AKJx xxx xxx and xxx xxx xxx AKJx, even though that promises Q+ in the suit according to the description. Add a J and it'll bid 4♠ with both.)

But basic GIB wasn't really meant to handle this; it's advanced GIB which should be adding the judgement part by simulating hands where you have values in the game try suit and choosing the appropriate continuation. And in this scenario, where the auction is quite simple and it should be able to simulate plenty of hands, it should judge pretty well.

[pilowsky]

mikeh, on 2022-April-11, 08:44, said:

Nobody asked the form of scoring or the vulnerability.

Also we don't know the methods, but I'm assuming GIB, given that the OP seems to play against robots rather than playing bridge. I have no clue how robots bid these but if forced to guess would think 'natural' game tries.

At imps, red, I just bid 4S. Defence is the toughest part of the game and the opening lead on 1S 2S 4S is one of the more difficult auctions against which to lead absent a nice sequence

If I were making a try, absent specialized methods, it would be 3D. I want to be in game opposite an average 2S with diamond help, plus if he has a max, no help in diamonds, but help in hearts, he can bid 3H.

That's an important point since we often, as helene noted, have two suits in which we want help. Always bid the cheapest, to allow partner to show or deny help in the higher should responder lack help in the cheaper.

Apologies for that.
I post my robot shenanigans in the robot section.
When I'm playing Bridge I post in the human section.
I was "2S" on this hand.
This hand came from one of the free tournaments on BBO (MP) playing a fairly simple strong NT system with a regular (-ish) partner.

[smerriman]

pilowsky, on 2022-April-11, 15:50, said:

playing a fairly simple strong NT system with a regular (-ish) partner.

If you have no agreements on how you play game tries, there's no right or wrong answer. Write off this board, and make some solid agreements for next time.

I'm a fan of 2NT asking partner for a game try as per a couple of other posters above.

[pilowsky]

smerriman, on 2022-April-11, 18:46, said:

If you have no agreements on how you play game tries, there's no right or wrong answer. Write off this board, and make some solid agreements for next time.

That seems to be the best conclusion to draw.
A quick simulation suggests that 4S is right here 40-70% of the time depending on information that would be obtained with better methods/solid agreements.

[thepossum]

Maybe I'm in the wrong place again but I would probably save time and bid 4 spades

[nige1]

pilowsky 'What's the best call for South here?'
+++++++++++++++++++
Charles Outred advocates minimal information leakage. e.g. you might agree...
- 4♠ = (Landy game try). Just boot game as thePossum advocates. on most hands give nothing away.
- 3♠ = S/O. No interest.
- 2N = (Cheapest bid by opener) "general purpose" try. Then a new suit by responder= game trial-bid.
- 3♣/♦/♥ =(Other new suit rebid by opener) Slam-try.
- 3N = NAT BAL suggestion.
- 4♣/♦/♥ =(New suit jump rebid by opener). SPLSlam-try.

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[kenberg]

I bid 3H. I suppose partner might rebid 3NT and I will have to think about that but usually he will bid 3S (I pass) or 4S (I pass) or 4H (I pass). W/o discussion 3H shows hearts.

Added: And really I do not need to think much if pard bids 3NT over my 3H. I'm not cruel, we go to 4S if by any chance he opts for NT. Not likely he would.

[nige1]

Long suit tries sometimes work better.
Here, 6♥, on the 4-4 fit, is a good contract, but, in ♠, 5♠ is the limit.

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