[Cyberyeti]

YOu have a 6511 with all the points in the long suits, you don't play negative free bids, the auction starts 1♦ from partner and a 2♣ overcall from RHO.

Start with KJxxxx/QJxxx and remove a point at a time keeping the suits of approximately equal strength, what is required to be removed if anything for you not to bid 2♠ ? and do you ever double ?

[DavidKok]

I never double. I think I'd pass with Qxxxxx/Jxxxx, maybe even with Qxxxxx/Qxxxx (what are my spot cards, vulnerability, is 1♦ standard or unbalanced or something special?). I'm bidding with either QJxxxx/Qxxxx or Kxxxxx/Qxxxx.

For the record, I'm not that proud of the minimum example hands, and we might well get in trouble. But the same is true if I pass that hand. If I could redeal myself a proper 2♠ bid I would, but that option is not available.

[Cyberyeti]

DavidKok, on 2022-June-19, 16:02, said:

I never double. I think I'd pass with Qxxxxx/Jxxxx, maybe even with Qxxxxx/Qxxxx (what are my spot cards, vulnerability, is 1♦ standard or unbalanced or something special?). I'm bidding with either QJxxxx/Qxxxx or Kxxxxx/Qxxxx.

For the record, I'm not that proud of the minimum example hands, and we might well get in trouble. But the same is true if I pass that hand. If I could redeal myself a proper 2♠ bid I would, but that option is not available.

It was dealt in practice so no particular vul. Context was weak NT 4 card majors but 4M4♦(32) 15+ and all 4441s with diamonds opened 1♦.

[mikeh]

I’d double. I can’t imagine bidding 2S.

Think about how the auction will develop: unless partner fits spades (and that may lead to disaster anyway though I like my chances), you’ve forced partner to bid. So he bids 3D. Now you bid 3H. You’ve created a gf with no assurance of any fit and on a hand where the opps may have as many hcp as your side.

Plus 4th seat is very likely raising clubs. Now what.

1D 2C 2S 4C p p to you. 4H now? You pretty much have to, but how can you be happy about it?

Meanwhile double let’s partner like his possible heart holding right away, and a spade fit as well of course. An immediate 2S may well eliminate finding hearts below game, and since we may have no playable fit at the game level, that’s too high a price for me.

Plus if I later get to bid at a comfortable level, having doubled, I can bid spades, showing usually 6 cards and less than the values for 2S.

2S will endplay partner on far too many hands for me to consider bidding it.

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2022-June-19, 23:05, said:

I’d double. I can’t imagine bidding 2S.

Think about how the auction will develop: unless partner fits spades (and that may lead to disaster anyway though I like my chances), you’ve forced partner to bid. So he bids 3D. Now you bid 3H. You’ve created a gf with no assurance of any fit and on a hand where the opps may have as many hcp as your side.

Plus 4th seat is very likely raising clubs. Now what.

1D 2C 2S 4C p p to you. 4H now? You pretty much have to, but how can you be happy about it?

Meanwhile double let’s partner like his possible heart holding right away, and a spade fit as well of course. An immediate 2S may well eliminate finding hearts below game, and since we may have no playable fit at the game level, that’s too high a price for me.

Plus if I later get to bid at a comfortable level, having doubled, I can bid spades, showing usually 6 cards and less than the values for 2S.

2S will endplay partner on far too many hands for me to consider bidding it.

If you double, the auction proceeds 1♦-(2♣)-X-(2♦)-P-(3♣) you acting again ? (it's just possible they bid 4♣ rather than 3)

[DavidKok]

If I double and partner has extra values and some clubs (not unlikely) they might well choose 3NT. Do you have a way to show both majors over that? I'm forcing the minimum example hands to the game level anyway, I just don't see a sensible way to stop in 2M or 3M, and I think you absolutely have to bid those 6-5 majors somehow.

I think double is worse if the opponents raise clubs, and also worse if partner has a strong hand with some clubs. One of the two is very likely to be true - someone has got to have the clubs!

[helene_t]

DavidKok, on 2022-June-20, 01:50, said:

If I double and partner has extra values and some clubs (not unlikely) they might well choose 3NT. Do you have a way to show both majors over that?

Maybe 4♣ shows that.

I am more concerned about partner passing the double, or doubling their 5♣ for penalties.

Anyway, I would bid with two queens but pass with two jacks. Probably bid with a queen and a jack but I wouldn't feel great about it.

[pescetom]

I would not double because I'm not particularly optimistic about partner holding a 4 card major and being able to show it here.
I would bid 2♤ on the actual hand, but you don't have to subtract that much for me to pass (both Qx is clear).

[LBengtsson]

I enjoy reading the replies to this discussion. I am a fan of NFB, and this hand sorts of proves that they are necessary on this specific auction. I think that without NFB, this hand is very difficult to evaluate, especially if the opps. get involved in a competitive auction. There again, either doubling or bidding does not quite show the playing strength or (lack) of high points in this hand.

I usually want - but it can not happen all the time - one-and-a-half honor tricks to either double or bid on this auction. The distributional strength of a 6/5 makes up for the lack of honor cards. To answer Cyberyeti's original question, I would hesitate bidding without Qxxxxx/Qxxxx. I think the vulnerability, and whether playing MPs or IMPs might change the answers slightly.

I think you need a gadget here where a 2♦ raise here shows this 5/5M or 6/5M not quite right for doubling or negative free bidding hand, and a 3♦ raise is 4+ card ♦ support (6-9) and pre-emptive, but statistically that is a very, very low percentage so is it worth an artificial bid? Not probably.

I prefer X to bidding, as X shows the two major suits (or at least one of them) here and implying shortness in the opps. suit, but it will be difficult for partner to know that just 3 or even 2 card support for a major will be adequate for a suit contract, whereas bidding either major suit directly over the 2♣ intervening bid is implying for more high card strength, I guess.

It's one of those 'spin a coin' hands where 'doing the right thing' might lead to the wrong result, and 'doing the wrong thing' might lead to the right result. I'd rather bid suits, if at all possible, but I still come down with mikeh that X deceives partner less than bidding when I should have better values.

[Cyberyeti]

The issue with the hand at the table is what you do next, the hand was QJxxxx, KJxxx, x, x and partner had AK, Qxx, Jxxxxxx, Jx 4♥, 4♠ for you and 4♣ for the opps all make

[DavidKok]

I've already said I'm pushing to game, so it seems like I got lucky!

[Cyberyeti]

DavidKok, on 2022-June-21, 03:58, said:

I've already said I'm pushing to game, so it seems like I got lucky!

Not clear, that might net you 50/100 in 5♣ possibly doubled against some 140s but certainly better than defending less than 5 clubs ops are actually making 3N with the spade blockage

[LBengtsson]

Cyberyeti, on 2022-June-21, 02:01, said:

The issue with the hand at the table is what you do next, the hand was QJxxxx, KJxxx, x, x and partner had AK, Qxx, Jxxxxxx, Jx 4♥, 4♠ for you and 4♣ for the opps all make

That is 14 cards, Cyberyeti. I guess partner's actual hand was ♠AK ♥Qxx ♦Jxxxxx ♣Jx. Even though you open 11 counts, I guess. That hand could be pass, 1♦ or 1NT playing weak (11-14 white), certainly with Fantunes , but I guess you play Acol. That will make life easy if you open 1NT here instead of 1♦. But this suggestion is only made having seen both hands. I do not think rebidding such a poor ♦ suit - even a six carder - at the 2 level is a good plan. Though all down to partnership agreement, I concede.

[Cyberyeti]

LBengtsson, on 2022-June-21, 04:57, said:

That is 14 cards, Cyberyeti. I guess partner's actual hand was ♠AK ♥Qxx ♦Jxxxxx ♣Jx. Even though you open 11 counts, I guess. That hand could be pass, 1♦ or 1NT playing weak (11-14 white), certainly with Fantunes , but I guess you play Acol. That will make life easy if you open 1NT here instead of 1♦. But this suggestion is only made having seen both hands. I do not think rebidding such a poor ♦ suit - even a six carder - at the 2 level is a good plan. Though all down to partnership agreement, I concede.

Yes 2362 the weakness of the diamond suit makes me prefer to open 1♦ although 1N would work better here. Our 1N is 12-14 and certainly no reason to upgrade, but it is >rule of 19 so we would open.

We'd have an interesting auction with this hand without the overcall, 1♦-1♠-2♦ now 2♥ would be inv+ artificial so 2N would be less than that with hearts usually 5-5 but just might be 5404 or 5413. So now what do you bid ? 3♥ ?