[perko90]

I'm posting this for a friend. Please vote in the poll.

[Frank_lol_]

I'd say its asking for ♦stop, since 2♦ is [Edit: f1] and 4♦ is a splinter.
They probably have a solid club and couldnt jump cue 3♦ in the first round because thats natural (in my system)

[ali quarg]

X over a 1♦ opening can be your traditional takeout/both Majors. I doubt its a Power X given the potential point counts
I would read 3♦ as asking for a ♦ stopper for 3NT with the 1♠ bid having been made on a minimum.

[pescetom]

Frank_lol_, on 2022-December-19, 01:15, said:

I'd say its asking for ♦stop, since 2♦ is gf and 4♦ is a splinter.

I agree (although F1 rather than gf).

[LBengtsson]

Have to agree with the other commentators (without knowing the answer specifically) that it sounds like Western Cue Bid territory, asking for a stopper in the ♦ suit, and for responder to bid 3NT with a stop (even though responder could have a garbage hand generally.)

[Cyberyeti]

Frank_lol_, on 2022-December-19, 01:15, said:

I'd say its asking for ♦stop, since 2♦ is gf and 4♦ is a splinter.
They probably have a solid club and couldnt jump cue 3♦ in the first round because thats natural (in my system)

2♦ is GF opposite a potential zero count ? really, I don't know anybody in my area that would play it GF although it is F1.

I suspect I'd play it as a splinter and play 2♦ then 3♦ as the stop ask

[Frank_lol_]

Cyberyeti, on 2022-December-19, 06:00, said:

2♦ is GF opposite a potential zero count ? really, I don't know anybody in my area that would play it GF although it is F1.

I suspect I'd play it as a splinter and play 2♦ then 3♦ as the stop ask

shoot, I meant F1
My bad

[Frank_lol_]

pescetom, on 2022-December-19, 03:29, said:

I agree (although F1 rather than gf).

yeah i meant f1

[bluenikki]

Frank_lol_, on 2022-December-19, 01:15, said:

I'd say its asking for ♦stop, since 2♦ is [Edit: f1] and 4♦ is a splinter.
They probably have a solid club and couldnt jump cue 3♦ in the first round because thats natural (in my system)

Wouldn't (1♦) - 3♦ already have asked for diamond stopper? That's certainly what I would assume if a stranger bid it.

Maybe the given auction asks for diamond stopper _and_ spade partial stopper.

[mw64ahw]

bluenikki, on 2022-December-19, 20:52, said:

Wouldn't (1♦) - 3♦ already have asked for diamond stopper? That's certainly what I would assume if a stranger bid it.

Maybe the given auction asks for diamond stopper _and_ spade partial stopper.

Yes, perhaps top heavy in the rounded suits so didn't want to bid 3♦ immediately

[smerriman]

bluenikki, on 2022-December-19, 20:52, said:

Wouldn't (1♦) - 3♦ already have asked for diamond stopper? That's certainly what I would assume if a stranger bid it.

Undiscussed I would assume natural over a minor, but a stopper ask over a major.

[perko90]

I didn't mean to post this in the Beginner/Novice thread, but here it is.
Anyway, I know I'm giving away my position, but I can't see any sane use of it other than a splinter. There's no other artificial use that can't be achieved starting with a 2D cue bid instead. After all, you're forcing a ptr to bid who could have zip.

[bluenikki]

smerriman, on 2022-December-19, 21:58, said:

Undiscussed I would assume natural over a minor, but a stopper ask over a major.

Does any book say that?

[mikeh]

perko90, on 2022-December-20, 02:53, said:

I didn't mean to post this in the Beginner/Novice thread, but here it is.
Anyway, I know I'm giving away my position, but I can't see any sane use of it other than a splinter. There's no other artificial use that can't be achieved starting with a 2D cue bid instead. After all, you're forcing a ptr to bid who could have zip.

I delayed posting then forgot, but I agree with you.

There is, imo, no useful analogy to (1D) 3D here. 3D is not asking for a stopper.

After (1D) x (p) 1S (p), doubler has lots of choices. Here’s my take on them

Pass: nothing to say. Some players advocate raising to 2S even with a minimum and 4S, since we want to preempt competition by responder. Not much turns on this, other than the ranges of other bids

1N: 19-20 balanced, too strong for a 1N overcall

2C/2H: good suit, strong but non forcing hand

2S: 4 card support. Depending on agreements, either nothing much extra or a constructive raise…good 15-17

3S: very strong but non forcing raise with 4+ support

3c/H: very strong but non forcing with long, strong suit

2D: catchall. On frequency basis, usually good hand with 3 card support, still interested in game opposite a limited hand. Often 3=4=2=3 with 17+. Occasionally the prelude to making a game force bid, whether that be raiding spades or bidding a new suit or (very rarely) bidding notrump

We can see, then, that 2D is not to be treated as a raise until doubler says otherwise. Thus advancer is free to bid notrump over 2D…directly or later. Also, if we have a source of tricks and want advancer to bid notrump, we can bid our own suit over 1S or after cuebidding.

We don’t need 3D as a stopper ask

Meanwhile, say I have AKxx AQxx x AJxx. I have a great hand. May make slam opposite Qxxxx xx xxxx Kx as one quick construction. I need to tell partner about my stiff diamond and huge hand.

So splinter it is. Imo.

[smerriman]

bluenikki, on 2022-December-20, 07:59, said:

Does any book say that?

I don't know about any books. Hard to find many references but This PDF says that "most" play it as natural in the minors, and Larry Cohen prefers that as well (with a comment above his saying expert standard is sometimes natural in the minors, though that commenter also didn't like it).

Of course, undiscussed I wouldn't make the bid over a minor in the first place just to be safe (but would have no hesitation making it over a major).

[Frank_lol_]

smerriman, on 2022-December-20, 13:24, said:

I don't know about any books. Hard to find many references but This PDF says that "most" play it as natural in the minors, and Larry Cohen prefers that as well (with a comment above his saying expert standard is sometimes natural in the minors, though that commenter also didn't like it).

Of course, undiscussed I wouldn't make the bid over a minor in the first place just to be safe (but would have no hesitation making it over a major).

yeah, I would treat instant jump cuebid over a minor as natural as well.

[bluenikki]

perko90, on 2022-December-20, 02:53, said:

I didn't mean to post this in the Beginner/Novice thread, but here it is.
Anyway, I know I'm giving away my position, but I can't see any sane use of it other than a splinter. There's no other artificial use that can't be achieved starting with a 2D cue bid instead. After all, you're forcing a ptr to bid who could have zip.

But the splinter has almost no utility here. If partner has high card values wasted in opener's suit, they already will have devalued them. Why should partner care whether your extra values are shortness?

If there is a problem here, it is if doubler does not require significant extra values for a single raise. So they run out of natural strong raises.

As it used to be, single raise was something like 17-19 dummy points, double raise 20-22, triple raise stronger.

So maybe this is the right forum after all.