[thepossum]

Hi

A few times recently when I have opened 1M with a 1NT strength hand 15+, followed by a forcing NT, I find the opener rebid ranges are a bit strange and inconsistent for a 2NT invite
2NT requires 18+ which on top of 6-12(?) seems very strong for an invite
Obviously with 15-17 it is not safe to jump straight to 3NT

I was not able to rebid the major so was forced to bid a rather meaningless(?) next step minor just to keep the bidding going, with responder giving more information on strength with their rebid

Are there alternative opener rebid ranges or is 18+ the standard

What are the best rebid options. What exactly do they mean or convey, especially if 1NT is generally used as semi-forcing

Most recent example responder had enough for 2M+1 (5 pts and 3 trumps) so it worked. I just get a bit confused with the point ranges

[smerriman]

If you have an unbalanced hand with 15-17 points, you have a second suit to bid naturally.

If you have a balanced hand with 15-17 points, you open 1NT.

Raising to 2NT thus has to show at least 18 points (or a literal 17 count that you upgraded to 18).

[thepossum]

Sorry - just deleted a comment. Wrong thread

The comment should have been

With an ordinary 5323 hand all you really can bid is a fairly unexciting 2C - just like a relay or something - since I supposedly need 6 to rebid my M
If it seems too strong to pass and too weak to invite that is all there is. 6-12 pts is quite a big range getting close to game with many ordinary openers but may
only make 1 or 2 if weak

In this case 1NT scored badly and 2M was the best contract

---

It didn't feel like a great 1NT opener since it only had 14 pts - I have a terrible tendency of adding extra points occasionally. Subconsciously
But the hand could have had potential opposite a maximum 1NT

[jillybean]

What method are you playing if partner can respond 1nt with 6-12 points?

[thepossum]

The system is GiB 2/1 and the range appears to be 6-12 for a forcing 1NT
That is also what I have read on other pages. This hand actually only had 5
It does appear consistent with 2/1 pages I have read
I find sometimes it leaves me with a guess on borderline hands
It can have 3 of the M too
Almost a hand where in the past I would have considered a 2S limit - back from Acol 4 card majors + 4 limit
I still grapple with it a bit.
You never know whether you are better to pass the 1NT or try to get back to 2x
Dare I suggest that passing 1M was an option too

[smerriman]

Ah. Your original post said you had a 15+ hand, so that's quite different. But the wide ranging 1NT isn't an issue, since partner will clarify whether they're weak or invitational with their next bid.

jillybean, on 2023-January-23, 22:13, said:

What method are you playing if partner can respond 1nt with 6-12 points?

Every one of thepossum's posts is about robots, and the point range read off the description.

[thepossum]

smerriman, on 2023-January-23, 22:39, said:

Ah. Your original post said you had a 15+ hand, so that's quite different. But the wide ranging 1NT isn't an issue, since partner will clarify whether they're weak or invitational with their next bid.


Every one of thepossum's posts is about robots, and the point range read off the description.

Mostly I play with Bots but I do try to check the system against other 2/1 references and bid according to real 2/1, not just Gib

Apologies for my memory. It felt like a 1NT hand that I decided to open 1M
I think many people felt it was a 1NT hand too

[thepossum]

This was the full hand

---

One of those terrible in-between hands that can cause trouble
Many were in 1NT N or S. The rest of us in 2S
I wanted to bid 2S but didn't feel I could do that and didn't really want to pass 1NT
To me that is almost a pass by North - but risky if South has a total max

[DavidKok]

Perhaps GIB plays 'constructive raises', where 1♠-2♠ shows approximately 8-10 HCP. Weaker hands with support have to bid a forcing 1NT first and then correct opener's response back to the major suit. It is important to note that responder would also do this with certain hands with only a doubleton in support, so the slower route is ambiguous. Larry Cohen's article on the forcing notrump, and indeed his entire series on 2/1, can help figure out what the standard response structure is. Mostly opener bids naturally, sometimes bidding a 3-card minor suit (or, in case of a disaster, a 2-card minor suit) as necessary. Responder will clarify their intentions on the second round.

[helene_t]

The Acol players at my local club play 2NT as 17-18 and jump to 3NT with 19.

The problem with this is this is that
- responder will have to pass 2NT with 5-6 points without knowing whether 2NT is the best partscore.
- It is unclear if responder's second bid of 3♥ is forcing or not. As it happens GIB wouldn't have this problem because it plays transfers but standard methods use a 3♥ rebid by responder as natural and forcing.
- After the 3NT rebid responder has no room to explore the best strain

So the 18-19 2NT rebid is better. With balanced hands with a 5-card major I would suggest
15 points: rebid 2♣ and pass partner's 2♠ preference
16 points: open 1NT
17 points: pretend you have 18. Or invite with 2NT after partner's 2♠ preference - discuss this with partner.

[mycroft]

People are learning (especially playing "best hand" against with the bots) to open 1NT on flat hands, even with a 5-card major.

If you open 1♠ on that hand, and get a forcing NT, yeah, you bid 2♣ and see where it goes. When it goes 2♠, fine. As someone said above, the robot plays constructive raises, so if it goes 1♠-2♠ instead, you have enough to invite or make a game try.

If you open 1NT on that hand, it gets passed out. As I said, many that would never have a 5-card major in their 1NT opener playing with a human will bid 1NT with GIB. And many are bidding 1NT with that hand, so often that they give up a natural 3♣ response in order to ask if partner did it this time.

Of course, people playing with GIB will not read the descriptions and assume that GIB plays "what everyone plays", and pass 1NT because they don't play 2/1.

[smerriman]

DavidKok, on 2023-January-24, 02:50, said:

Perhaps GIB plays 'constructive raises'..

mycroft, on 2023-January-24, 21:03, said:

As someone said above, the robot plays constructive raises..

FWIW, it will raise to 2♠ with Q32.Q432.Q432.32 - just needs '7 total points', with the doubleton counting as the 7th. It just bids 1NT with support if it has 5-6 HCP but less than 7 total.

I guess you could consider that some form of constructive raise, but not how you're normally interpret it, and not anywhere enough to assume 2♠ is more than garbage.

[thepossum]

When I post stuff about 2/1 I am not just asking about Gib. I am asking about the genuine system, philosophy and how each bid should work
No need to obsess over the robot which just happens to be my partner most of the time in the absence of finding good company from 3 or more regular others

Very hard to find 3 others of similar bridge level and philosophy. Not many of us around


Thanks for all the comments though. No need to obsess over the Bot. I always want to think like a human
Next time I will post all the names as anonymous or even give them names so as not to have the thread undermined with obsession over a Bot

What matters is when I find humans to sit and play with that I play correctly for them

I think I have some kind of HCP counting disorder. Every time I count the points in that hand I get a different number
- that appears to be because the hands are different. One has a King and One has an Ace - but they are very similar in many ways - just different by a point

So I am now totally confused. I hope nobody else is. But at least all the discussion still applies
The second fully posted hand with 15 points was the genuine hand. No idea why I suddenly thought I only had 14 - but for me that would still be a possible 1NT