[jillybean]

Good result, ugly way to get there. I'm not so sure of the auction. The rest of the field stopped in 6NT

---

[Frank_lol_]

I am a little confused: what does 2♦ show?
The 4NT also seems a bit rushed, but I wonder if there's anything better than that.
We would have opened 1NT with North's hand. Then the auction would go:
1NT-2C
2H-3C
3H-5/6NT depending on my day
Maybe you could have set H as trump and rkc with that? Because maybe the opener has a KQxxx heart suit and 7C might be the only possible grand. (by ruffing a heart)
Which means, if I try to be the big-brain, the auction would go (for us):
1NT-2C
2H-3C
3H-3S maybe? hoping opener won't jump to 4NT
4D-4NT
5S-I honestly don't know

[jillybean]

We play 12-14 NT

2♦ is natural, could be a probe for NT, I would expect 4

correction, I don't want to bid 2♥ now.

[Frank_lol_]

jillybean, on 2023-January-25, 15:33, said:

We play 12-14 NT

2♦ is natural, could be a probe for NT, I would expect 4

correction, I don't want to bid 2♥ now.

Well, I think trusting your partner is pretty important. I
Can't say that you made a mistake though.

Edit: You edited your reply, so mine doesn't make sense anymore

Anyways, is there a way for the opener to show exactly 15-17, 5-3-3-2?

Edit 2: like what AL78 said below, what would your 2NT show? maybe you don't bid 1NT with 5M? I have no idea, so I'm just guessing.

[smerriman]

If 2♦ is natural, what is 4NT? I'm guessing not RKCB, or you'd look a bit silly when partner had the ♦K instead of A!

[AL78]

If you are playing a weak NT why does North not bid 2NT at his second turn which I would think shows a strong NT hand? I don't understand 2♦ but then I am not familiar with 2/1 GF.

[jillybean]

We don't have a method to show 15-17 5332
2NT would show this hand type but unclear as to values.

4NT is indeed RKC ♦ and I wouldn't be posting this hand if West had the ♦Ace.
I'm hoping #1 partner is showing first round control, #2 East has the Ace, and would like to know how to find the ♦Ace and stop these crazy auctions.

Over 2♦ I could continue 2♠ or 2NT, both unclear and will lead to 2/3NT

[pescetom]

It looks like an advert for strong NT, although I'm sure you could construct something opposite.
we would bid 1NT 7NT here, 1NT 5NT with 1 point less.

[DavidKok]

1♥ and 2♣ were great starts to the auction. After that I think it got a little bit confused. One of the important ways to get to good game and slam contracts is by using the cheap bids as much as possible in game forcing auctions. Bids that use up more space should be more descriptive, and really narrow down the set of possible final contracts. There is no risk of partner passing early, so you freely get to convey maximum information.
There is an exercise that I found can helpful in understanding bidding systems and their peculiarities. On a given start of the auction, in this case (opponents silent) 1♥-2♣; ?, list out all the bids starting with pass up to some high level, say 5♥, and give their meaning. You can repeat this for each bid in the auction and figure out what the systemic auction is for a given pair of hands. In your example I expect this to look like:

1♥-2♣; ?:

• Pass - Does not exist
  
• 2♦ - 4(+) diamonds
  
• 2♥ - 6(+) hearts
  
• 2♠ - 4(+) spades
  
• 2NT - 15+ balanced (responder assumes 15-17 until proven otherwise, opener keeps the bidding open with 18+).
  
• 3♣ - 4(+) clubs, usually 2=5=2=4
  
• 3♦ - A splinter raise of clubs
  
• 3♥ - A (nearly) self-sufficient suit, sets trumps. The hand is not suitable for other trump suits.
  
• 3♠ - A splinter raise of clubs
  
• 3NT - Does not exist (if you do bid this, it should probably show a 12-14 balanced with 5cM in your system). Alternatively you can use this for something artificial, I'm ignoring that for now.
  
• 4♣ - Does not exist
  
• 4♦ - Does not exist
  
• 4♥ - A really weak opening with very long hearts - slightly too strong to open a preemptive 4♥.
  
• 4♠ - Does not exist
  
• 4NT - Does not exist
  
• 5♣ - Does not exist
  
• 5♦ - Does not exist
  
• 5♥ - Does not exist

Over the (incorrect) 2♦ bid responder has the answers:

• Pass - Does not exist
  
• 2♥ - Since your 2♣ is Balanced or Clubs it presumably denies 3(+) hearts, so this should be a doubleton, stalling for more information.
  
• 2♠ - 4(+)♠5(+)♣.
  
• 2NT - Balanced. It is common to play split range here so that 2NT shows 12-14 or 18+ while the jump to 3NT shows 15-17, but there are other ways to treat balanced hands.
  
• 3♣ - GF with 6(+) clubs.
  
• 3♦ - 5(+)♣4(+)♦. Depending on partnership you may decide to include balanced hands with 4 diamonds.
  
• 3♥ - Does not exist
  
• 3♠ - A splinter raise of diamonds, typically exactly 1=2=4=6.
  
• 3NT - See 2NT. Optionally you could use this as an artificial bid.
  
• 4♣ - Either does not exist, or sets clubs as trumps and investigates slam (promises a self-sufficient suit).
  
• 4♦ - Does not exist
  
• 4♥ - Does not exist
  
• 4♠ - Does not exist
  
• 4NT - Does not exist (2NT is always a better description for balanced hands, and diamond or heart raises first confirm the fit).
  
• 5♣ - Does not exist, but in some systems this is the only way to bid a hand with very long clubs that was upgraded into a GF for lack of alternative bids.
  
• 5♦ - Does not exist
  
• 5♥ - Does not exist

In general it is a bad idea to jump voluntarily in game forcing auctions. You lose the ability to learn a lot of additional information about partner's hand. Based on the (unalerted) reply I suspect 4NT on the given auction was interpreted as RKC Blackwood for diamonds or plain Blackwood without a trump suit. South had no idea of knowing whether the partnership was heading towards a small or grand slam (or even if game was the limit), and whether or not there was a fit in a red suit or in clubs. There was plenty of room to learn of all of this without jumping. The subsequent jump to 7NT is wrong for the same reasons - if you are considering pushing to 7NT you can always do this after asking for more information first.

A lot of bridge players get too excited when holding a strong hand and jump all over the place. Maybe it's nerves, maybe they don't know their system and are covering that up by not using their system, maybe it's the gambler's fallacy ("I had poor hands all evening! Now I finally get a strong one, I'm going to play it in slam, see if I don't!"), maybe it's something else. On slam auctions it is almost always better to take the slow route and collect more information. Sometimes I get the evil urge to go over to the bidding box and conveniently misplace all the STOP cards, in the hope that will dissuade partner from jumping. On the example auction South lost their mind, jumping 5 levels in two rounds.

[akwoo]

I'm believer, especially playing 12-14 1N, that, after 1H-2C, *3N* shows 15-16 5332 shape (with two clubs or xxx in clubs).

Now North has a very good 16, and South has a very good 19, so either of them could upgrade and we'd get to 7N, but I'm not sure.

I wonder if KK relay finds 7N - I would guess it has enough room? (North signs off in 3N, but of course South overrides.)

[jillybean]

I've removed 3NT from my 2/1 auctions as it was never so well defined and simply killed any slam try by removing all the bidding space. If we could have it well defined and remembered I can see it could be very useful.

On these slam hands I must stop trying to cater for partner forgets or slip ups, bid my hand and let the chips fall where they may. I hate missing slams.

[LBengtsson]

Sometimes good results occur when you bid directly and gamble as opposed to constructive auctions. Swap either ♥J or ♣J for ♦J and you will need luck to bring in 7NT except if you can make a squeeze or a finesse work.

I have not come across any conventional features that identify jacks in a 5 card suit, which makes all the difference in a 7 card fit with the other top honors covered. So you gambled and won. Clint Eastwood "The Good" would have been proud

[AL78]

DavidKok, on 2023-January-25, 16:23, said:

A lot of bridge players get too excited when holding a strong hand and jump all over the place.

I reckon some of them aren't confident on which bids are forcing and which are not, so are scared of the auction dying in a silly place. Jumping must convey strength and thus be forcing. This is especially an issue with beginners.

With the overbidding of strong hands and underbidding of weak hands, some partnership's auctions are analagous to Yosemite Sam and the camel:

https://www.youtube....h?v=hBhlQgvHmQ0

[nullve]

akwoo, on 2023-January-25, 18:02, said:

I wonder if KK relay finds 7N - I would guess it has enough room? (North signs off in 3N, but of course South overrides.)

LBengtsson, on 2023-January-26, 00:35, said:

I have not come across any conventional features that identify jacks in a 5 card suit, which makes all the difference in a 7 card fit with the other top honors covered.

I don't know about KK Relay, but here's my auction:

Spoiler

---

North-South

1N(1)-2♦(2)
2♠(3)-2N(4)
3♥(5)-3N(6)
4♣(7)-4♦(8)
4♥(9)-4N(10)
5♦(11)-5♠(12)
6♣(13)-6♦(14)
6N(15)-7N(16)
P

(1) "14-16 BAL"
(2) "Jacoby transfer or strong"
(3) 4-5 H, not 3433
(4) strong relay, says nothing about hearts
(5) 5H(332)
(6) 5+ C, slam interest
(7) 3532
(8) key card ask with clubs as trumps
(9) an even number of key cards
(10) ♥K ask
(11) ♥K, no ♦K
(12) ♥Q ask
(13) ♥Q, no ♦Q
(14) ♠Q ask
(15) ♠Q, ♥J, no ♥T
(16) contract

[jillybean]

we can't even remember that a jump rebid of a major starts a cue bid sequence.

[Cyberyeti]

Nullve, you lost me at 14-16, this is much more a 17 count than 16 and I would bid however I'd bid a 17 count.

[Douglas43]

jillybean, on 2023-January-25, 20:56, said:

I've removed 3NT from my 2/1 auctions as it was never so well defined and simply killed any slam try by removing all the bidding space. If we could have it well defined and remembered I can see it could be very useful.

On these slam hands I must stop trying to cater for partner forgets or slip ups, bid my hand and let the chips fall where they may. I hate missing slams.

I play fairly simple methods when rebidding two no trumps after a two level response (playing opening 12-14)
2NT is GF. Covers all 15-17s and 18-19 with 5 hearts and doubt about destination. If responder bids 3♥ now opener bids 4♥ with 15-17 and cue-bids with 18-19.
3NT is 18-19 and describes the hand, usually 4 hearts, can be 5 but poor suit and a "no trump-y" hand
Not perfect but gives reasonable definition.

[Douglas43]

pescetom, on 2023-January-25, 16:21, said:

It looks like an advert for strong NT, although I'm sure you could construct something opposite.
we would bid 1NT 7NT here, 1NT 5NT with 1 point less.

Maybe but it's not a good grand without the Jack of hearts is it?

[Cyberyeti]

Douglas43, on 2023-January-26, 07:38, said:

Maybe but it's not a good grand without the Jack of hearts is it?

It's not terrible, hearts 3-3 or 4+ hearts and the ♦K in the same hand so 3-3 + 9/20 of the 4-2s + 8/20 of the 5-1s + 7/20 of the 6-0s

[TylerE]

pescetom, on 2023-January-25, 16:21, said:

It looks like an advert for strong NT, although I'm sure you could construct something opposite.
we would bid 1NT 7NT here, 1NT 5NT with 1 point less.

Seems like an advert for confidently bidding a grand off an ace. 16+19 = 35