[nullve]

 Frank_lol_, on 2023-January-30, 07:37, said:

I will bid 1♠ because 2♥ promises 8-10 for me.

Yes, but total points, not hcp. (Very important!)

 Frank_lol_, on 2023-January-30, 15:38, said:

Yes.
But 1NT would denies 4S for us. And if I go through 1NT, it would mean good 6-9 with 2 card support or 5-7 with 3 card support, which makes the opener's life a bit harder.

In standard 2/1,

1M-1N; 2m-2M

and

1♠-1N; 2♥-2♠

is either (possibly false) preference with doubleton support (and ~ 5-9 hcp) OR something like 5-7 total points with 3c support. Over this, Opener bids exactly as he would if Responder's rebid had denied 3c support.

It's obviously possible to play

1♥-1♠; 2m-2♥

the same way.

[DavidKok]

That's certainly a style of 2/1, but I think calling it 'standard' is an overbid.

[Frank_lol_]

 nullve, on 2023-January-31, 03:16, said:

Yes, but total points, not hcp. (Very important!)

Am I too conservative? that hand does not look 8-10 for me.

nullve said:

In standard 2/1,

1M-1N; 2m-2M

and

1♠-1N; 2♥-2♠

is either (possibly false) preference with doubleton support (and ~ 5-9 hcp) OR something like 5-7 total points with 3c support. Over this, Opener bids exactly as he would if Responder's rebid had denied 3c support.

It's obviously possible to play

1♥-1♠; 2m-2♥

the same way.

oh, I'm expecting 1♥-1♠-1NT. But you are right, we do play like that.

[bluenikki]

 jillybean, on 2023-January-30, 01:01, said:

---

Playing 2/1 & "standard", answer for either or both, thanks.

If you have an established partnership, you will have decided what 1♥ - 1♠ ; 1NT - 2♥ means. If it is this hand, you bid 1♠. If it would be forward-going, you don't.

Playing with a stranger, bidding 1♠ is very dangerous.

[nullve]

 Frank_lol_, on 2023-January-31, 06:57, said:

Am I too conservative? that hand does not look 8-10 for me.

Not to me, either!

[Frank_lol_]

A little bit off topic, but I wonder what GiB will do. Will it bid with some reference to real bridge with a hand like this?

[pescetom]

 bluenikki, on 2023-January-31, 07:31, said:

If you have an established partnership, you will have decided what 1♥ - 1♠ ; 1NT - 2♥ means. If it is this hand, you bid 1♠. If it would be forward-going, you don't.

Another factor here is your convention (if any) after XYN.
With XYZ, 1♥ - 1♠ ; 1NT - 2♥ can hardly be forward-going, however you would have played it without.

[DavidKok]

The problem auction isn't 1♥-1♠; 1NT-2♥. You wish it would go that way. The problem auctions are 1♥-1♠; 3♦-?, 1♥-(P)-1♠-(4♣); P-(P)-?, 1♥-(P)-1♠-(2NT*); X-(3♦)-? and many more.

[pescetom]

 DavidKok, on 2023-January-31, 09:32, said:

The problem auction isn't 1♥-1♠; 1NT-2♥. You wish it would go that way. The problem auctions are 1♥-1♠; 3♦-?, 1♥-(P)-1♠-(4♣); P-(P)-?, 1♥-(P)-1♠-(2NT*); X-(3♦)-? and many more.

I hear you. Although we have 6 HCP here, it's far from certain we were going anywhere in those situations anyway, even the first (which is still relatively simple in bidding terms).

[helene_t]

 Frank_lol_, on 2023-January-31, 08:29, said:

A little bit off topic, but I wonder what GiB will do. Will it bid with some reference to real bridge with a hand like this?

I dealt a bunch of hands with 5-3 in the majors and 6 points. It always bids 2♥. With 5 points it sometimes passes but usually bids 2♥.

[nullve]

From the Kokish-Kraft notes:

1♥-1♠ = "4+S, could be extremely light"
1♥-1N = "Semi-forcing, maximum 12 HCP; opener can pass if BAL, with no game in sight (rare)"
1♥-2♥ = "Not a terrible raise"
1♥-1♠; 2m-2♥ = "NF: most often two-card support; if three, then very weak hand"

[mikeh]

 pescetom, on 2023-January-31, 10:19, said:

I hear you. Although we have 6 HCP here, it's far from certain we were going anywhere in those situations anyway, even the first (which is still relatively simple in bidding terms).

Three queens, no singleton, only 3 card support. I don’t care what it adds to using any arithmetical netric: this is a WEAK hand

Kxxxx Kxx x xxxx. That’s a good 6 count.

Queens, especially queens not supported by even so much as a 10, are overvalued by the 4321 count. I wish advancing players would more often realize the imprecision of 4321 and/or shape ‘adjustments’. Are they a useful rough guide? Sure. Are they to be taken as reflecting precise evaluation? Not even close.

Some say ‘well, that’s fine for you but we don’t have your judgement’. How do you think you develop judgement?

When you learned to ride a bicycle, you probably started with training wheels. Do you still use them? (An imprecise analogy since I still use point count for some things)

[Frank_lol_]

 mikeh, on 2023-January-31, 12:57, said:

Three queens, no singleton, only 3 card support. I don’t care what it adds to using any arithmetical netric: this is a WEAK hand

Kxxxx Kxx x xxxx. That’s a good 6 count.

Queens, especially queens not supported by even so much as a 10, are overvalued by the 4321 count. I wish advancing players would more often realize the imprecision of 4321 and/or shape ‘adjustments’. Are they a useful rough guide? Sure. Are they to be taken as reflecting precise evaluation? Not even close.

Some say ‘well, that’s fine for you but we don’t have your judgement’. How do you think you develop judgement?

I agree. So what do you think is the correct bid?

[jillybean]

 Frank_lol_, on 2023-January-31, 15:02, said:

I agree. So what do you think is the correct bid?

I hope you don't mind if I quote you

 mikeh, on 2023-January-30, 14:14, said:

Unless playing a method in which 2H shows semi constructive or better values, 2H is 100% imo.Why?Traditionally, and to this day for most, 1S then a true heart raise shows constructive valuesYou’d probably survive 1H P 1S P 1N P 2H P… because, having bid 1N, opener is unlikely to bid again. But…and this is an important but….what if the bidding goes 1H P 1S 3m P P?Opener could easily have six hearts and you may need to compete to 3H but you’re too weak to do this….now opener not only may be in trouble (possibly doubled) but also may bid a terrible game, expecting a better hand than you have.Thus 2H. Let’s partner in on the fact that you have a modest hand with heart support. Does that describe your hand? Yes. So why not let partner in on this?What’s 1S gaining you?Even if the opps stay silent, 1S gets you nowhere 2H won’t get you, given that you’re not passing 1N or 2m. If you belong in spades, partner can bid 2S over 2H (some play that as artificial but in standard methods and absent specific agreement otherwise, it’s a natural game try. I doubt you are worth a raise, but the 5-3 heart fit will almost always play as well as the 5-4 spade fit when opener has extras, as he must have to bid 2S. Meanwhile, 1H 1S 2m 2H doesn’t promise 3H.When you have a one bid hand….as you do here….always show support if you have it. This is a partnership game. If you do play 2H as a better hand, the solution is not to bid 1S then mislead partner via 2H later. It’s to bid 1N then 2H. Yes, unless you’re playing methods such as Bart, partner won’t know whether you have 2 or 3 hearts, but he’ll know that if you have 3, you’re too weak to have raised immediately Frankly, if not playing a semi forcing or forcing 1N, I think any call other than 2H is not partnership bridge.

[thepossum]

Its almost a pass for me because if I had anything good enough to go to game opposite that I would have bid 2C
I think 2S (in the system I use) is too strong even though in the good old days 2S would have promised nothing much
I'm going to pass and probably upset the partner (who hopefully is like me and won't be upset)
I would need to check to be sure though
You could end in some terrible NT (if you bid that) or some major contract well above your capabilities

[nullve]

 Frank_lol_, on 2023-January-31, 08:29, said:

A little bit off topic, but I wonder what GiB will do. Will it bid with some reference to real bridge with a hand like this?

 helene_t, on 2023-January-31, 10:38, said:

I dealt a bunch of hands with 5-3 in the majors and 6 points. It always bids 2♥. With 5 points it sometimes passes but usually bids 2♥.

Robots (basic? advanced?) are free today:

---

Note that

1♥-1♠; 2♣-2♥ = "2+ ♥; 4+ ♠; 6-9 total points"

in this robot's system.

Giving North a slightly better hand:

---

So 1♥-2♥ = "Simple raise -- 3+ ♥; 7-10 total points".

[nullve]

And then 5 hcp with the same shape:

---

[smerriman]

 nullve, on 2023-February-01, 02:42, said:

And then 5 hcp with the same shape:

See here for the logic (that was 1NT but it's the same). But this thread has probably gone too far off topic now.