[LBengtsson]

I was watching a friend play on BBO (intermediate level) and she wanted to know what technically was the right opening bid with this hand? She is dealer at white/red IMPs

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[DavidKok]

Bidding systems aren't made for dealing with 7-5 hands. They are hard to show and very rare. As a result you can get lots of different advice on any particular very shapely hand. Wars have been fought over what to open with a 5M6m hand, how this depends on strength, suit quality, position of the moon and the lunch you had. All this to say: there isn't a single correct answer, and mostly that's not a big deal since the hands are rare.

On the example hand I would open 1♦ and bid hearts at my next round, and on the third round (if I get the chance) I'll choose between diamonds, hearts, or some artificial call if needed. Ignore all the people who claim that this is because of the difference in suit quality, or that the heart suit is almost a 4-card suit.

[bluenikki]

DavidKok, on 2023-April-21, 05:50, said:

Ignore all the people who claim that this is because of the difference in suit quality, or that the heart suit is almost a 4-card suit.

So you would also open 1♦ if the diamonds had been headed by the 8 and the hearts had been AKQJ10?

[Cyberyeti]

White v red first seat makes it tricky, I might try to get the auction up high early, but 1♦ is clearly technically correct in most systems.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I would go with 4D and if the auction comes back to me with 4S, I will bid 4NT,
this should show a higher ranking but shorter 2nd suit.
This assumes I have a partner I trust to understand this 4NT bid.

Given the colors I wont sell out to 4S, and this plan gives me a chance to introduce
both suits and show my shape.
Now most plans have one thing in common: with first enemy contact they implode.

With 65 you could start with 1H, but with 75 and the 5 card suit basically worthless
(in direct comparison to the diamond suit) you should start with diamond and drop the
heart suit for the time being.
An alternative option is also to start with Pass, you have no real trouble bidding 5D
in the next round, so Pass can help you discover good things ( but also bad things).

With kind regards
Marlowe

[ali quarg]

If you play Majors always first then 1♥ and keep rebidding diamonds with 9+ playing tricks unless ♥ are supported.

[mikeh]

I agree with everything David wrote other than his suggestion of 1D.


If we open 1D,it is likely that we don’t get to show hearts at any realistic level. If we can, then bidding hearts will likely be in a situation in which we are reversing and even though one can reverse with only sound opening values if 5=6, this hand lacks those values. Remember that partner is an independent actor entitled to draw inferences from our bidding, especially in choosing to double for penalties.

There is something about our hand that suggests defending a black suit contract is unlikely to be a good idea. Yet sometimes partner has them nailed.

And of course maybe they are cold for a slam!

Me? I open 5D.

Indeed, I can’t really see any good argument for nor doing so.

If the opps can reach a slam, well done to them (unless it fails). Note that our heart holding may make it difficult for the opps to make a takeout double….there’s a chance that the opp with strength is short in hearts.

Meanwhile, having opened 5D, we can trust anything partner does.

[PrecisionL]

I open 1♦ and ignore the hearts.

If you win the hand, the defense will be a forcing defense by leading your short suits and you will lose control playing in hearts UNLESS partner can bid them herself / himself (or maybe make a responder Take Out Double).

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2023-April-21, 11:37, said:

Me? I open 5D.

Indeed, I can’t really see any good argument for nor doing so.

The only arguments for not doing so are:

Partner has 2 aces, plus A/KQ/KJ, 1-2 hearts, 1 diamond ... You should have opened 3N.

Partner has a running club suit , ♠K and 1-2 very small diamonds and you can never get to dummy, a club contract plays much better.

4♦ can work in that if LHO bids and partner doubles, I haven't shown any more defence than this and the fact that I have only 7 diamonds is a plus, it's wrong if partner has a big heart fit.

[Gilithin]

mikeh, on 2023-April-21, 11:37, said:

Me? I open 5D.

Indeed, I can’t really see any good argument for nor doing so.

You really can't think of a single argument for, say, a 3NT opening, whatever meaning that holds, even if you end up picking 5♦ as first choice? Personally I can think of at least two...

[the hog]

This is a pretty clear 5♦ opening. I also cannot see the value in opening anything else. Those who open 1D hoping to a) show the hearts later or b) show the hearts and not misstate their strength are deluded as this will not happen.

[Cyberyeti]

the hog, on 2023-April-24, 21:07, said:

This is a pretty clear 5♦ opening. I also cannot see the value in opening anything else. Those who open 1D hoping to a) show the hearts later or b) show the hearts and not misstate their strength are deluded as this will not happen.

There are several ways you might get to bid hearts:

1) partner responds 1♥
2) you get a 1♦-1♠/2♣-2♦-artificial relay auction where you can now show the hearts and possibly bid the hearts again to show 5
3) the auction starts 1♦-(1♠/2♣/2♠)-X

We have another because we play that in all 3 suits bid between us and the opps auctions that double shows 4 of the unbid suit without necessarily showing extra values so 1♦-(1♠)-2♣-(2♠)-X would show 4 hearts without showing extras and this is probably what I'd do as 3♥ which would show 5 hearts is overdoing it.

That said, it's quite likely the auction will be at a large number of spades (or less likely clubs) before you bid again.

My worry is partner holding say KJxxx, Ax, J, Axxxx or similar where 3N is cold and 5♦ really poor

Not sure I can bring myself to open 3N on this but I think I prefer it to 5♦. I'd be opening 1♦.

[mikeh]

Gilithin, on 2023-April-21, 19:14, said:

You really can't think of a single argument for, say, a 3NT opening, whatever meaning that holds, even if you end up picking 5♦ as first choice? Personally I can think of at least two...

Try re-reading my post.

The fact that one can make one or two arguments ‘for’ opening 3N isn’t the same as saying you’ve got a ‘good’ argument against 5D.

Obviously whether 3N is even in consideration depends upon what it means for you and your partner. For me and mine it definitely doesn’t show a solid minor. Hence, for me, there is no ‘good’ argument for it.

If it is, for others, a solid minor, I’d place it close to 5D. My main point was that imo 4D is a horrible bid and 3N not much better. If the opps bid 4S, we’re going to feel that we should have opened 5D. Unless partner doubled, of course, and even then we’re going to be worried that partner thinks his good heart holding is valuable on defence. Wouldn’t we all think that AKQx is great opposite either 3N or 4D? Then declarer ruffs the second round.

1D is better, imo, than 4D but suffers from the not insignificant fact that it makes bidding either black suit easy for the opps, while only rarely allowing us to find a heart fit.

Look at it this way…if we have a good heart fit, 5D rates to play well while at the same time making it very difficult for the opps to find their fit. It’s an error, imo, to assume that this is our hand. It may be and, if so, it’s likely that either suit works. If not,we have to obstruct their bidding and 1D doesn’t get the job done.

As for making up hands to suit one’s preference, that can be useful to show why one is concerned but it’s a mug’s game to claim that such carefully constructed hands offer a sound argument. For cyber’s KJxxx Ax J Axxxx I counter with xxxx KQJx xxxx x where normal breaks make slam their way virtually cold yet they may have no way to find clubs over 5D. Do I suggest such a construction justifies 5D? Of course not. No one nor any twenty hands one makes up serves any purpose other than to convince oneself that one’s choice is best.

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2023-April-25, 09:28, said:

Try re-reading my post.

The fact that one can make one or two arguments ‘for’ opening 3N isn’t the same as saying you’ve got a ‘good’ argument against 5D.

Obviously whether 3N is even in consideration depends upon what it means for you and your partner. For me and mine it definitely doesn’t show a solid minor. Hence, for me, there is no ‘good’ argument for it.

If it is, for others, a solid minor, I’d place it close to 5D. My main point was that imo 4D is a horrible bid and 3N not much better. If the opps bid 4S, we’re going to feel that we should have opened 5D. Unless partner doubled, of course, and even then we’re going to be worried that partner thinks his good heart holding is valuable on defence. Wouldn’t we all think that AKQx is great opposite either 3N or 4D? Then declarer ruffs the second round.

1D is better, imo, than 4D but suffers from the not insignificant fact that it makes bidding either black suit easy for the opps, while only rarely allowing us to find a heart fit.

Look at it this way…if we have a good heart fit, 5D rates to play well while at the same time making it very difficult for the opps to find their fit. It’s an error, imo, to assume that this is our hand. It may be and, if so, it’s likely that either suit works. If not,we have to obstruct their bidding and 1D doesn’t get the job done.

As for making up hands to suit one’s preference, that can be useful to show why one is concerned but it’s a mug’s game to claim that such carefully constructed hands offer a sound argument. For cyber’s KJxxx Ax J Axxxx I counter with xxxx KQJx xxxx x where normal breaks make slam their way virtually cold yet they may have no way to find clubs over 5D. Do I suggest such a construction justifies 5D? Of course not. No one nor any twenty hands one makes up serves any purpose other than to convince oneself that one’s choice is best.

It wasn't so much opening 3N I meant, although I would consider that, but getting to 3N (which you can after 1♦ but not after 5♦)

Also your example is disingenuous, the chance of partner having 8 red cards and all the points in the heart suit is minimal, on average partner has say 10 HCP 4324 or 4225 with most of the points in the blacks, my hand is MUCH more likely than yours.

[Gilithin]

mikeh, on 2023-April-25, 09:28, said:

If it is, for others, a solid minor, I’d place it close to 5D. My main point was that imo 4D is a horrible bid and 3N not much better. If the opps bid 4S, we’re going to feel that we should have opened 5D.

One of the arguments I can make in favour of a 3NT opening, assuming it shows either a good or solid 4m preempt (I have played both, as well as some completely different things), is that it is possible to rebid 4NT over a 4♠ overcall, which I would assume offers a choice of red suits at the 5 level without overemphasising the hearts. Whether this consideration outweighs allowing them to make that 4♠ bid at all is perhaps dubious but I am not sure it is irrelevant.