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following rules to the extreme "4 up 5 down"

#1 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2023-May-30, 16:59




I'm lost for words here, I don't know how to start discussing this hand.
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#2 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2023-May-30, 18:26

I don't think you're following the right rules. Just from the perspective of North's first bid, as far as I'm aware the "rule" for takeout doubles is that a 4 card major always takes priority over a minor.
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#3 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2023-May-30, 18:49

I'm not sure which rule you are referring to but I would hope partner would look at the hand and realize that they had
one and only one bid here, partner's double suggest hearts, the only option is 2.

I think the 4 up, 5 down "rule" is when responding to partner's 1m when you hold 44 or 55 in the majors.
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#4 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2023-May-30, 19:22

Ah, I thought the topic title meant that you thought "4 up 5 down" applied here. Agree it doesn't :)
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#5 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2023-May-31, 07:27

I was really only having a rant at my frustration with partners who apply rules and seemingly don't apply any logic to the auction. My partners are smart people !!
To those who teach bridge please stop teaching "rules" and teach your students to think.
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#6 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2023-May-31, 08:21

View Postjillybean, on 2023-May-31, 07:27, said:

To those who teach bridge please stop teaching "rules" and teach your students to think.


I do my best, I don't teach rules, I teach rough guidelines alongside logic, but teaching people to think, whether at bridge or life in general, is an uphill battle. Here in SE England they haven't yet mastered the art of walking through a door without stopping midway and blocking it.
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#7 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2023-May-31, 08:53

I am curious. Do people think the South hand is too strong for a simple 2 overcall instead of a double?

I am not seeing a game for our side if partner is so weak that they can't conjure up a bid if it goes (1) - 2 - (pass) - ??
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#8 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2023-May-31, 12:06

View Postshyams, on 2023-May-31, 08:53, said:

I am curious. Do people think the South hand is too strong for a simple 2 overcall instead of a double?

I am not seeing a game for our side if partner is so weak that they can't conjure up a bid if it goes (1) - 2 - (pass) - ??


Well KQJ10x and out is a cold 3N and KQxxx is pretty good, is partner expected to bid over 2 with say xx, xxxx, xx, KQ10xx ?
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#9 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2023-May-31, 12:14

"I'm tryin' ta think, but nothin's happenin'!" -- Curly Joe Howard
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
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#10 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2023-May-31, 12:18

View PostCyberyeti, on 2023-May-31, 12:06, said:

Well KQJ10x and out is a cold 3N and KQxxx is pretty good, is partner expected to bid over 2 with say xx, xxxx, xx, KQ10xx ?

The issue then is --- given that 2/1 is GF --- which action pays off more statistically? 2 or Dbl?

I am genuinely asking because I think the Dbl puts us on a path that more often leads to a worse outcome than a 2 overcall.
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#11 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2023-May-31, 12:19

View Postshyams, on 2023-May-31, 12:18, said:

The issue then is --- given that 2/1 is GF --- which action pays off more statistically? 2 or Dbl?

I am genuinely asking because I think the Dbl puts us on a path that more often leads to a worse outcome than a 2 overcall.

How does 2/1 work in an overcall situation?
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#12 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2023-May-31, 12:21

View Postjillybean, on 2023-May-31, 12:19, said:

How does 2/1 work in an overcall situation?

Sorry, I erroneously added the phrase. My fault
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#13 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2023-May-31, 12:55

I am not sure what you are asking.

I personally would have advanced 2[hearts, not because it is the major, but because it is the higher of touching suits.The 2 advance should have worked well though. The problem was South's 2. 3 would not be an underbid. Where did they think the cue would get them?
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#14 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2023-May-31, 13:06

View PostCyberyeti, on 2023-May-31, 12:06, said:

Well KQJ10x and out is a cold 3N and KQxxx is pretty good, is partner expected to bid over 2 with say xx, xxxx, xx, KQ10xx ?

But the 2 advance to a double could equally well be a topless suit. When doubler rebids 2, it will not occur to your example hand to suppress the hearts a second time. So the flu honors will still be unrevealed.
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#15 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2023-May-31, 13:11

View Postshyams, on 2023-May-31, 08:53, said:

I am curious. Do people think the South hand is too strong for a simple 2 overcall instead of a double?

I am not seeing a game for our side if partner is so weak that they can't conjure up a bid if it goes (1) - 2 - (pass) - ??

The problem with the overcall is not that it may be passed out.

It is that when advancer keeps the bidding open, you won't have anything sensible to do.
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#16 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2023-May-31, 13:57

View Postshyams, on 2023-May-31, 08:53, said:

I am curious. Do people think the South hand is too strong for a simple 2 overcall instead of a double?

I am not seeing a game for our side if partner is so weak that they can't conjure up a bid if it goes (1) - 2 - (pass) - ??


I do, and I would double intending to bid diamonds next time if partner doesn't bid spades or diamonds. The problem is what to do when partner does bid diamonds as my hand improves if we have a good fit. I'm not sure I would bid 2, probably 3 and hope partner takes that as showing a good hand.
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#17 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2023-May-31, 15:13

View PostAL78, on 2023-May-31, 13:57, said:

and hope partner takes that as showing a good hand.

Hope? Hope???
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