[allen333]

So, my partner says 3rd or 4th seat is allowed. I say, standard or partnership agreement? He, who reads and highlights everything that seems interesting, says " well um partnership agreement." Is it worth agreeing to? I kinda like knowing that 1nt means a real 1nt bid, so I'm reluctant. Am I wrong?

[the hog]

What is wrong with opening 1NT with 2 doubletons? Nothing. It is a very old fashioned view to think there is something wrong about this.

[allen333]

If your partner doesn't normally do it, what does old fashioned have to do with it?

[rbforster]

I have high standards for NT - no voids and at most one singleton.

[aguahombre]

Speaking in general about opening 1NT with off-shapes is not particularly useful. There should be a hand to look at.

People who actually discern when to do it (minority on these fora*) consider such things as whether they have an acceptable rebid or an awkward one if they open 1X: whether the concentration in the two suits (e.g. 2-4-5-2) is such such that they can comfortably reverse; whether they want to screw with the opponents in certain seats; and other factors.

*--Relax, folks. JK.

[the hog]

aguahombre, on 2011-November-04, 19:31, said:

Speaking in general about opening 1NT with off-shapes is not particularly useful. There should be a hand to look at.

People who actually discern when to do it (minority on these fora*) consider such things as whether they have an acceptable rebid or an awkward one if they open 1X: whether the concentration in the two suits (e.g. 2-4-5-2) is such such that they can comfortably reverse; whether they want to screw with the opponents in certain seats; and other factors.

*--Relax, folks. JK.

Others look at the shape- 5422 is balanced - and the point count. I would like to see your rebid on this one after opening 1D. 2H perhaps?
AQ xxxx AQxxx Ax or even xx Qxxx AKxxx AK (Ken would probably bid 3C or something equally bizarre.)
As a rider for aguahombre, we are excluding 54 major hands of course.

[Mbodell]

I used to hate opening 1nt with any shape other than 4333, 4432, and 5332 (and the last one only if not a major). Now I love opening 1nt with 5422 (usually not if the 5 is a major), 6322 (6 card minor), and 5332 (5 card major). I haven't yet adopted 1nt on lots of 4441 and 5431 hands but when my partners do it, it does seem to turn out pretty well. I think it is mostly a style thing, but think it is likely that once you go off shape you will not go back. Auctions are so much easier when your side opens 1nt and so much harder for the opponents to bid over 1nt.

[Yu18772]

Its a matter of expectation - I play that NT may contain 2 doubletons, or singleton A or K -this is very common among all levels. It doesnt need even to be an agreement or understanding - there is nothing in the responses which adjusts for it - you just agree that from time to time when you end up in a bad contract, its nobody's fault- this happens about once in 20-30 times on this hands, but the gain is much more.
A word of caution though - when this ends up badly, it can be really ugly.....but usually undoubled!. The gains are great - you solve a lot of rebid problems for 15-17 semi balanced hands, you open 1NT more frequently (which has preemptive effect)....its importnat though that doubletons will contain HCP.

[aguahombre]

aguahombre, on 2011-November-04, 19:31, said:

Speaking in general about opening 1NT with off-shapes is not particularly useful. There should be a hand to look at.

People who actually discern when to do it.....consider such things as whether ... the concentration in the two suits (e.g. 2-4-5-2) is such such that they can comfortably reverse...

the hog, on 2011-November-04, 19:37, said:

I would like to see your rebid on this one after opening 1D. 2H perhaps?
AQ xxxx AQxxx Ax

?? Hence your example would open 1NT. I don't see XXXX as a robust holding in hearts, and therefore fail to see what your disagreement is.

[the hog]

aguahombre, on 2011-November-04, 19:46, said:

?? Hence your example would open 1NT. I don't see XXXX as a robust holding in hearts, and therefore fail to see what your disagreement is.

What I am saying is that I would open all 5422 hands, excepting Majors, with 1NT in the appropriate range.
As you want a more robust H suit, try
xx AKxx AKxxx Jx
A clear 1NT opening in my opinion.

[aguahombre]

the hog, on 2011-November-04, 20:04, said:

What I am saying is that I would open all 5422 hands, excepting Majors, with 1NT in the appropriate range.
As you want a more robust H suit, try
xx AKxx AKxxx Jx
A clear 1NT opening in my opinion.

me, too. Was talking about a hand like XX AKXX AKQXX XX for the reverse. You are talking about common sense NT opening bids.

[ggwhiz]

One of the better Bergen lessons is that you must plan your second bid before you make your first.

Anytime you have a 5-card minor and 4 hearts consider what a 1♠ response will do to your rebid problems and open 1nt if that seems better.

The corollary is that pard will respond 1 of your short major or 1nt or at least that is the response you have to prepare for.

ie. with 5 spades and a 4 card minor should you open 1nt? or open 1♠ and bid 2 of your wimpy minor after pards 1nt or jump to 3 of your minor, maybe going overboard.

The time to decide your course is before the first bid based on Bergens "likely" response and seat has nothing to do with it.

[jillybean]

allen333, on 2011-November-04, 17:31, said:

So, my partner says 3rd or 4th seat is allowed. I say, standard or partnership agreement? He, who reads and highlights everything that seems interesting, says " well um partnership agreement." Is it worth agreeing to? I kinda like knowing that 1nt means a real 1nt bid, so I'm reluctant. Am I wrong?

Standard, ANY seat.

[Phil]

Today I opened 1nt with 5314, 3622 and a lot of various 14's.

The time I didn't I had Q8xxx AQ Axxx QJ. This worked poorly as partner had Jx xxx KQTxx Kxx and passed 2D.

[JLOGIC]

lol @ passing 2D. Though it might have worked out poorly from wrongsiding NT. Phil, I am very surprised if you love opening 1N with all of those hand types you would choose AQ and QJ doubleton and only 6 HCP as your time not to. Personally I basically never open 1N with 5422 an a 5 card major (and open 1N with basically all 5422s and a 5 card minor when I can), but I would consider doing it with your example hand.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

White vs Red
MP
3rd seat

K x
10 x
A K J x x
K Q x x

[the hog]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-November-05, 08:07, said:

White vs Red
MP
3rd seat

K x
10 x
A K J x x
K Q x x

1NT. wtp?

[barryallen]

Yu18772, on 2011-November-04, 19:43, said:

Its a matter of expectation - I play that NT may contain 2 doubletons, or singleton A or K -this is very common among all levels. It doesnt need even to be an agreement or understanding - there is nothing in the responses which adjusts for it - you just agree that from time to time when you end up in a bad contract, its nobody's fault- this happens about once in 20-30 times on this hands, but the gain is much more.
A word of caution though - when this ends up badly, it can be really ugly.....but usually undoubled!. The gains are great - you solve a lot of rebid problems for 15-17 semi balanced hands, you open 1NT more frequently (which has preemptive effect)....its importnat though that doubletons will contain HCP.

This to me is key, the rebid problems can create more of an issue than opening 1NT in the first place, so how can it be wrong? Is it important that both doubletons contain HCP and what HCP would you recommend as being of any value? If you are prepared to open a 5332 with no HCP in the doubleton, why not when you have two of them, or maybe that's pushing the odds too far? I would be equally concerned about lack of strength in my long suit and down rate accordingly, due to the fear of slow tricks in establishing the suit.

[nigel_k]

There is no rigid rule - it depends on the suits and honour location. 1NT is very clearly right on AQ Qxxx Qxxxx AQ and equally clearly wrong on AKxx xx xx AKQxx. The cutoff is somewhere in between. I am probably more inclined to open a suit than most people but still open 1NT with 5422 quite a lot.

[Yu18772]

barryallen, on 2011-November-06, 08:11, said:

This to me is key, the rebid problems can create more of an issue than opening 1NT in the first place, so how can it be wrong? Is it important that both doubletons contain HCP and what HCP would you recommend as being of any value? If you are prepared to open a 5332 with no HCP in the doubleton, why not when you have two of them, or maybe that's pushing the odds too far? I would be equally concerned about lack of strength in my long suit and down rate accordingly, due to the fear of slow tricks in establishing the suit.

opening 1NT with 2 doubletons is an alternative you weigh opposite "normal" bidding. If you hold 16-17 2425, and your 16 HCP are in the long suits you can reverse, it will show the hand without distortion. If you hold 2425 with 16-17 HCP with relatively poor long suits - by definition it would mean HCP in the doubletons, and reversing with poor suits is a distortion - in my experience these are the most beneficial hands to open 1NT with 2 doubletons (these and holding 5-4 in minors). Also if you have only one doubleton partner will likely have some length in that suit, and opponents may not lead it. When you hold two of them and play NT - it is very very likely that opponents will lead in one of the doubletons, and usually it is not going to be partners best suit either, so something useful in the doubletons is important.