[heart76]

Novice to strong club systems but relatively expert bidder otherwise, considering to try a strong club in my regular partnership.
I posted in non-natural bidding systems too, just thought this topic could find experienced players here 😊

I am looking for suggestions on (relatively) fully developed structures over 1♧ = 16+ HCP any hand, which are built on one of the following set of principles:
A) use of transfer responses to 5M/6m and always looking for the ideal orientation of a NT contract, i.e. responder not bidding NT in 1st/2nd round with weak balanced hands; agreed methods for accepting or breaking the transfer by opener; possible transfers at the 2nd round by responder.
For example (don't take it literally):
1♧ - 1♡ = 5+ ♤, GF
1♤ = balanced 16-17 HP 2+♤ / unbalanced 3+♤
1NT = unbalanced, distrib.?
2♧/◇ = 4+ ◇/♡
2♡ = 6+ ♤
1NT = 18-19, 0-2 ♤, 4- ♡
2♧/◇/♡ = 5+, 2- ♤
2NT = 20-21, 0-2 ♤, 4- ♡

B) Natural responses 4+ cards M and natural followups

Full integration of our NT systems (which cater for almost everything already) in both cases would be the starting point.
Integration of other conventions not an issue.

Does anyone have online references to full or partial systems? Books, other?

[blackshoe]

KK Relay, by Karen Walker and Kit Woolsey might be a good start.
Symmetric Relay, by Nick Hughes
Standard Modern Precision, by Dan Neill
Santa Fe Precision, by Doug Dawson

The latter two describe two very similar versions of "Meckwell Lite". There are things in each book that are useful, but not in the other.

[heart76]

Thanks blackshoe.
Are they all relay systems? I take you suggest to start from the last two, right?
Is there anything natural-like?

[DavidKok]

I personally deliberately did not recommend these books since they don't meet your description.

• KK Relay is a modern symmetric relay book. It uses some, but not all, switches to make opener declarer a bit more often. It does not use transfers, except for the fortunate case where a 1♥ response shows spades. There is nothing natural about it.
  
• Symmetric relay is a slightly older version of symmetric relay. Again, no transfers and no natural bidding. In the other thread I suggested Transfer-Oriented Symmetric Relay, which is still symmetric relay but at least has your transfers.
  
• Standard Modern Precision describes Mecklite. It is somewhere between natural and relay - it does not do full shape relay, and always shows the longest suit first, which allows for natural continuations and relay breaks (unlike symmetric, which all but rules this out). But there are a bunch of artificial tools and asking bids, especially if you play a fuller version of Mecklite (not described in the book - in fact, the book is pretty light on details on a bunch of auctions).
  
• I have not read Santa Fe Precision, hopefully someone else can chime in here.

Personally I think you are going down the wrong path by following these recommendations, and I would instead recommend starting with something natural and only swapping in a custom system over 1♣ if you find that it loses too much. It is very common for strong clubbers to spend all their days on their constructive 1♣ system, only for it to matter maybe once or twice a year.

[heart76]

DavidKok, on 2024-July-24, 03:22, said:

Personally I think you are going down the wrong path by following these recommendations, and I would instead recommend starting with something natural and only swapping in a custom system over 1♣ if you find that it loses too much. It is very common for strong clubbers to spend all their days on their constructive 1♣ system, only for it to matter maybe once or twice a year.

Thanks, got it. It will be of course a matter of discussion in the partnership. I am mostly concerned of rightsiding NT but I lack the experience to judge how much gain/lose there is in adopting a relay system, partial or full.
I know for a fact that my partner would like to start with a full system we can find in a book or online and eventually spend time only on those issues that may arise.

[blackshoe]

The most significant difference between Standard Modern Precision (SMP) and Santa Fe Precision (SFP) is that the latter often goes into more detail on certain "more than the basic system" auctions. Both are, as I understand these things, descriptions of Meckwell Lite. In most respects they are almost identical, save for the "more detail" I mentioned. So yes, SMP and SFP are "natural", or at least more natural than the other two systems I mentioned, which are both relay systems.

I have a partner who is now reading SMP. I expect we'll start playing it at some point. :-)

SMP/SFP responses to 1♣:
1♦: 0-7 HCP, NF
1♥: 8-11 HCP, artificial, GF
1♠: 12+ HCP, 5+ ♠, GF, slam interest
1NT: 12+ HCP, GF, balanced, no 5 card suit, slam interest
2♣: 12+ HCP, 5+ ♣, GF, slam interest
2♦: 12+ HCP, 5+ ♦, GF, slam interest
2♥: 12+ HCP, 5+ ♥, GF, slam interest
2♠: 12+ HCP, artificial, any 4441, GF, slam interest

The Hughes book speaks about a number of different systems that use or could use Symmetric Relay, but the author's preferred systems, where allowed, are SCAMp (Strong Club Accenting Majors -- I think he didn't want to call it "SCAM") and SPAM (Strong Pass Accenting Majors).

[blackshoe]

If you want to look at older and perhaps more natural Precision versions you might try Berkowitz and Manley, Precision Today, or Rigal, Precision in the '90s.

[mycroft]

+1-ing blackshoe (I would have said exactly the same thing), but warning that Rigal's book goes heavy, deep, fast (his "basic Precision" is fine, but that's 100 pages of a 500 page book). Berkowitz/Manley to me has a nice balance of "basic Precision" and "funky stuff you can add" - and a lot of their "stuff" is relatively independent (so you can add 10-12/11-13 NT NV on its own, or transfer positives on their own, or new responses to 2♣ or 2♦, or... without a huge propagation chain of changes (okay, the transfer positives is a *big* independent change).

Played "Precision Today" for about 5 years regularly; used tools from Rigal in other Precision partnerships (including the PT one), but never attempted to play his book.

[DavidKok]

I think most of the suggestions above fall into the common trap of spending a lot of time and effort on the positive responses to 1♣, instead of on everything else. It's certainly fun to read up and compare options, but do not expect it to reflect on your score much.

In the Mecklite structure we play the 1♥ response denies a 5c♠, since that is difficult to show over opener's rebid. We also have the responses of 1NT and 2♥ (whether direct or through 1♥) reversed, and the next step is always an asking bid. I'd seriously consider starting with something more natural though.

P.S.:

blackshoe, on 2024-July-23, 19:36, said:

KK Relay, by Karen Walker and Kit Woolsey might be a good start.

The book is by Karen McCallum and Kit Woolsey.

[PrecisionL]

"Santa Fe Precision" by Dennis Dawson, 2019

"The book is written with the intermediate player in mind, building on what you already know from Two-Over-One. It is built on practical bids that are easy to remember."

Responses to 1♣:

1♦ = 0-7 points, any distribution
1♥ = 8-11, any distribution, forcing to game
1♠ = 12+ points, 5+♠
1NT = 12+ points, Balanced with no 5-cd suit
2♣ = 12+ points, 5+ clubs
2♦ = 12+ points, 5+ diamonds
2♥ = 12+ points, 5+ hearts
2♠ = 12+ points, Any 4-4-4-1 hand

Note: The author recommends swapping the 1NT and 2♥ responses. Then, the 1♠ response strength becomes 8+ points.

1NT = 14-16
2NT = 19-20

Appendix 1:

Losing Trick Count

Appendix 2: Convention Cards

1 - Getting Started

2 - Filling in the Gaps

3 - Bells and Whistles

[DavidKok]

For what little it's worth, we play 2♥ (swapped from 1NT) as "12-15 balanced no 5cM", but we do allow a 5cm. Then the 2m responses, with or without 1♥, deny a balanced hand. 16+ balanced hands go in 2NT, but are very rare of course. More details can be found at https://bridgewinner...o-precision-1c/. We've made one or two small modifications compared to this link though.

But again, just start with C.C. Wei and only upgrade when you find it is costing you noticeable points. So:

• 1♦ = 0-7 HCP, any distribution
  
• 1♥ = 8+ HCP, 5(+)♥
  
• 1♠ = 8+ HCP, 5(+)♠
  
• 1NT = 8+ HCP, balanced or 4441
  
• 2♣ = 8+ HCP, 5(+)♣
  
• 2♦ = 8+ HCP, 5(+)♦

[blackshoe]

DavidKok, on 2024-July-30, 10:08, said:

P.S.:The book is by Karen McCallum and Kit Woolsey.

So it is. My bad. So much for relying on my memory.

[kwiktrix]

Before you start arbitrarily reading "Precision" Books - there are hundreds of them - you need to define your basic system needs:

• 1♣ = 16+ (or 15+ or 17+)?
  
• What reply structure do you want? One that differentiates non-GF from GF? Or has a 3 way split among weak, semi-positives and GF?
  
• Transfer positives?
  
• 4 card majors with canapé or 5 card majors - this impacts the "quality" of the 1♦ opening. Then where do you put your short diamond hands? In 1♦ or 2♦?
  
• How to handle clubs? Using 2♣ opening for 6+♣ OR 5+♣4M or both?
  
• Do you want to play a 2/1 style for 1M opening hands? Or an SA style?
  
• What range of notrump do you want to play? 15-17? 14-16? 13-15?
  
• How do want to use 2N opening? Minors or natural? Do you want to play Kokish after a 1♣:1♦ start? Both of these impact your notrump tier structure.
  
  The benefit of any strong club is NOT the 1♣ opening, but the limited nature of the other bids. It is a far easier system to learn than 2/1 as it doesn't have all of the nuances of reverses, jump shifts, and any other bids that define the semi-strong hands, those that are in the 15-17 HCP range. By far, the most important benefit is that it allows responder to immediately know how many assets the partnership has, hence the opponents. We don't need to cater for opener having a strong hand.
  
  My suggestion is start out with a VERY basic system with predominantly natural bids.
  
  1C = 16+
  1D = 11-15 4+d (includes longer clubs)
  1M = 11-15 4+M (includes longer minors)
  1N = 13-15 ALL 5332, 4432, 4333
  2C = 11-15 6+c (no 4+M, no 4+d)
  2x = whatever you play now
  
  Over 1C
  1D = 0-8
  1M = 9+ NAT (or you can play flip majors)
  1N = 9-12 BAL (or 9+ UNB clubs)
  2C = 9+ NAT (or UNB diamonds)
  2D = 9+ NAT (or 9-12 BAL)
  2M = 5-8 6+M
  2N = 13-14 BAL
  3x = never happens - 4441's 7+ weak hands, etc)
  3N = 15-16 BAL

[foobar]

kwiktrix, on 2024-September-09, 15:11, said:

Before you start arbitrarily reading "Precision" Books - there are hundreds of them - you need to define your basic system needs:

• 1♣ = 16+ (or 15+ or 17+)?
  
• What reply structure do you want? One that differentiates non-GF from GF? Or has a 3 way split among weak, semi-positives and GF?
  
• Transfer positives?
  
• 4 card majors with canapé or 5 card majors - this impacts the "quality" of the 1♦ opening. Then where do you put your short diamond hands? In 1♦ or 2♦?
  
• How to handle clubs? Using 2♣ opening for 6+♣ OR 5+♣4M or both?
  
• Do you want to play a 2/1 style for 1M opening hands? Or an SA style?
  
• What range of notrump do you want to play? 15-17? 14-16? 13-15?
  
• How do want to use 2N opening? Minors or natural? Do you want to play Kokish after a 1♣:1♦ start? Both of these impact your notrump tier structure.
  
  The benefit of any strong club is NOT the 1♣ opening, but the limited nature of the other bids. It is a far easier system to learn than 2/1 as it doesn't have all of the nuances of reverses, jump shifts, and any other bids that define the semi-strong hands, those that are in the 15-17 HCP range. By far, the most important benefit is that it allows responder to immediately know how many assets the partnership has, hence the opponents. We don't need to cater for opener having a strong hand.

+1 to the above. My suggestion for a basic system is slightly different, albeit at the cost of losing the natural 1♦:

1C: 16+
1D: 2+; classic Precision

• Alternative #1: 0+ ♦ with 2♦ handling the 6+ diamond hands; 11-13 balanced OR all 5m4M OR both minors OR 4441
  
• Alternative #2: 0+ ♦ with all 5m4M hands OR 11-13 balanced OR 4441; NOT both minors

1M: 5+
1N: 14-16 NT, possibly 15-17 in 3rd and 4th
2C: 6+ clubs

• Alternative #2: 5+ ♣, maybe 4♦

2D: Short diamonds; classic Precision

• Alternative #1: 6+ ♦
  
• Alternative #2: 5+ ♦, maybe 4♣

2H+: As before