[Cyberyeti]

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Dealer S MPs make your first 2 bids then look at the spoiler

Spoiler

E will bid 2♠ or double it if N bids it

bid these, then play them in a)5♣N b)6♣N on a 9♦ lead

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Several questions:

1) what do you lead from the south hand

2) how do you play this on the lead of:
a) small diamond
b) 8 clubs (second highest from bad) - and if your K♣ wins as N what do you do
c) 3 rounds of spades

[mw64ahw]

As South I'd X the 2♥ bid given the 4144 shape and 8.5 mod losers. So I expect North to bid 2/3♠ (depending on the style of X) . North is not a max. for me despite the 14hcp. I wont be bowing out to a 3♥ bid

[Cyberyeti]

mw64ahw, on 2025-May-09, 03:52, said:

As South I'd X the 2♥ bid given the 4144 shape and 8.5 mod losers. So I expect North to bid 2/3♠ (depending on the style of X) . North is not a max. for me despite the 14hcp. I wont be bowing out to a 3♥ bid

We play penalty doubles of 1N-2any, but effectively had this auction as at our table they overcalled 2♦ (single suit) and I doubled that and it proceeded 2♥-P-P-2♠-3♥-3♠

I went one off, and whether this was a good score depended on whether you made the heart contract reached at all the other tables.

[mw64ahw]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-May-09, 04:12, said:

We play penalty doubles of 1N-2any, but effectively had this auction as at our table they overcalled 2♦ (single suit) and I doubled that and it proceeded 2♥-P-P-2♠-3♥-3♠

I went one off, and whether this was a good score depended on whether you made the heart contract reached at all the other tables.

OK so X wasn't available here. I thought penalty had gone out of favour

[Cyberyeti]

mw64ahw, on 2025-May-09, 04:25, said:

OK so X wasn't available here. I thought penalty had gone out of favour

At higher levels I think it has, but this was a play/defence problem rather than a bidding one

[mw64ahw]

1 9♣
2
a) 3♦ wanting 3rd round control
b) 4♣ an easy duck
c) A♠ not leading away from, dropping the 7♠ on the return

Also just read the spoiler, not sure I understand the bidding sequence.

[Cyberyeti]

mw64ahw, on 2025-May-09, 04:59, said:

1 9♣
2
a) 3♦ wanting 3rd round control
b) 4♣ an easy duck
c) A♠ not leading away from, dropping the 7♠ on the return

Also just read the spoiler, not sure I understand the bidding sequence.

The spoiler is for the first hand, basically if the auction starts 1♥-P=2♣ E bids 2♠
If it starts 1N-P-2♠ E will X

Corrected W to E

[mw64ahw]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-May-09, 05:14, said:

The spoiler is for the first hand, basically if the auction starts 1♥-P=2♣ E bids 2♠
If it starts 1N-P-2♠ E will X

Corrected W to E

got it now

[Huibertus]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-May-09, 04:12, said:

We play penalty doubles of 1N-2any, ...

You really should be playing negative doubles even more so when you play a 12-14 NT like you seem to do (I can't imagine this hand was upgraded to 15 for a 15-17 opener). Try it some time.

[mw64ahw]

1N-(P)-2♠-(X)
2N--(P)-4♣ SI ♥ splinter-(P)
5♣ odd KCs denying ♦/♠ controls-(P)-6♣

6♣ relies on running J♥ or West having A or Q♠. I think it will have to be J♥ after a X

[mike777]

Hand 1.
1H-P-2C-(2S)
P-P-2nt-P
3NT

Hand 2.
8 of clubs lead seems pretty clear.

If N wins KC, switching to a spade seems pretty clear.

[mikeh]

On the first hand, I’m pretty sure we’d end up in 6C. Aiming for 3N as north seems misguided…the choice will be between 5C and 6C. Why is it misguided? Because after a spade lead we need to run 8 fast winners. It’s unlikely we can do this unless partner has good club support, and if he has the club support we need, we may well have slam.

Now, methods may influence this analysis. What does 2C show for you? We play what is now virtually expert standard in NA: a 2D response promises five, so with 3=3=4=3 gf values bids 2C. This is important because of opener’s pass over 2S. He can’t raise on 3 card support…well, there might be hands where such would appeal but I can’t think of any at the moment. In turn this operates to keep clubs in the picture as responder.

Given the lead, we have four choices, which are not, imo, close to being equal.

Least attractive…hoping west has a spade honour and we guess which it is. Given the 2S bid, this would be a very unattractive choice.

Running the heart Jack. A weak player might cover. That’s about the only thing going for it.

Playing for a squeeze on east….win the diamond, draw trump….cash the diamonds, run trump. With a trump to play, we hold KJ J void x. If east holds the spade AQ as well as the heart King, he has either thrown the queen…we exit in spades with a trump to get back to our hand, or has come down to AQ Kx in the majors. Our last trump forces out the spade Queen (usually) and we have a choice of winning plays…exit a spade and hook the ensuing heart return or just play the heart Jack to the queen.

This line works (so long as we read the shape, which should be fairly easy) any time east has the spade Ace and heart king. It’s basically equivalent to hooking the heart, with a slight extra chance if east stiffs his spade Ace.

Finally, we can play to ruff out the heart king….Win the lead in hand, heart to the ace, ruff high, trump to dummy, ruff heart high unless east showed out on the first trump, back to dummy, ruff again, setting up the heart Queen unless an opp had Kxxxx(x).

I’ve discounted a 7-0 heart break….we’re down anyway on that absent an improbable spade finesse working.

I see virtually no chance that east has 5 hearts, so the ruffing hearts line seems the best. If east holds the king, we’re probably better than 99% to ruff it out. Just think what west’s hand looks like if he has a stiff heart.

And, of course, if west has the heart king, our only really plausible line is to hope we can ruff it out.

[Cyberyeti]

Mike,

we don't play 2/1 GF so 2♣shows 4 unless 3343 10-12 or 16+, and we take no account that partner might initially hold 3.

we hit a system hole, the auction started 1♥(weak NT context)-P-2♣-2♠ and I can't double as this shows =4♦, so I bid 2N (GF not necessarily bal), now partner bids 3♣(says nothing other than he has 5+♣) and we've reached decision time.

I could bid 3♥ showing 5+ but this is what I'd also do with a really big heart hand with lots of them, or I could bid 4♣, or I could bid 3♦ suggesting cards there, and worried about spades.

I chose 3♥, partner bid 4♣ and I bid 5.

The question is what is your trick target in 5♣ ?

My 2N bid wrongsides NT, and I'm not sure we can disentangle the auction to bid 6.

[mike777]

If you pass has partner promised a rebid?
If not I guess double(D) or 3S, I think my choice.

Unfortunately 2NT seems worst option.

[mikeh]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-May-09, 14:40, said:

Mike,

we don't play 2/1 GF so 2♣shows 4 unless 3343 10-12 or 16+, and we take no account that partner might initially hold 3.

we hit a system hole, the auction started 1♥(weak NT context)-P-2♣-2♠ and I can't double as this shows =4♦, so I bid 2N (GF not necessarily bal), now partner bids 3♣(says nothing other than he has 5+♣) and we've reached decision time.

I could bid 3♥ showing 5+ but this is what I'd also do with a really big heart hand with lots of them, or I could bid 4♣, or I could bid 3♦ suggesting cards there, and worried about spades.

I chose 3♥, partner bid 4♣ and I bid 5.

The question is what is your trick target in 5♣ ?

My 2N bid wrongsides NT, and I'm not sure we can disentangle the auction to bid 6.

You already know how terrible your methods are. Having to bid 2N as opener is, frankly, completely unplayable. I would under no circumstances agree to such a method. If your 2C response didn’t promise another bid (if available at the 2 or 3 level) then you need to change methods. It’s little surprise that at the higher levels of the game, 2/1 is virtually universal (using a broad definition of 2/1 rather than a ‘2/1 system’ as is played by 90% of tournament players in NA).

What would double by opener be? If you’re not going to change your 2C structure, then you have to play opener’s double as ‘extra values, no clear direction’.

I’ll tell you this…which you should already know….any expert pair who knows this gaping hole in your methods is going to be in your auctions on any excuse at all. Look at this…. if responder, innocently, bids 3N….as he might if 2=2=3=6 same high cards….well, it’s going to be easy to estimate your matchpoint score. Guessing how many imps you’ve lost is a little more difficult.

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2025-May-09, 16:41, said:

You already know how terrible your methods are. Having to bid 2N as opener is, frankly, completely unplayable. I would under no circumstances agree to such a method. If your 2C response didn’t promise another bid (if available at the 2 or 3 level) then you need to change methods. It’s little surprise that at the higher levels of the game, 2/1 is virtually universal (using a broad definition of 2/1 rather than a ‘2/1 system’ as is played by 90% of tournament players in NA).

What would double by opener be? If you’re not going to change your 2C structure, then you have to play opener’s double as ‘extra values, no clear direction’.

I’ll tell you this…which you should already know….any expert pair who knows this gaping hole in your methods is going to be in your auctions on any excuse at all. Look at this…. if responder, innocently, bids 3N….as he might if 2=2=3=6 same high cards….well, it’s going to be easy to estimate your matchpoint score. Guessing how many imps you’ve lost is a little more difficult.

It's the first time we've hit this hole in 30 years playing these methods together. Without the 2♠ bid, 2N is easy, it's the 2♠ bid that causes the issue, 2N is what I'd rebid unopposed and it would not necessarily be balanced, it's how I GF on many hands and in no way promises a stop. It's a method taken from a pair of Venice cup winners so dismissing it as unplayable is silly. You also dismiss the whole of Acol as a playable system if 2♣ has to promise a rebid, 1♥-2♣-2♥ is NF in most forms of Acol. I said X by opener is exactly 4 diamonds (so 3♦ shows 5).