[jillybean]

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Cue bidding 1st and 2nd round controls, 4S is a cue, not kickback.

It's a good time to revisit cue bidding, what are your agreements? Is anything std in North America?
Is 4S first round control?
Does 4S deny a club cue?
If North cooperates with 5D do we also promise a club control?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

4C is not a cue, it is showing strength, ..., most of the time a hand to strong to make a simple 4H
bid.
4S is a cue, ..., the first cue av., hence still mixed, and it certainly does not deny a club control,
as far as I see it, opener did not promise a diamond control.
5D by North is certainly denying a club control, otherwise what is stopping him from bidding 4NT?
It is also quite likely that 5D is a first round control.

[jillybean]

P_Marlowe, on 2026-January-14, 08:58, said:

Hi,

4C is not a cue, it is showing strength, ..., most of the time a hand to strong to make a simple 4H
bid.
4S is a cue, ..., the first cue av., hence still mixed, and it certainly does not deny a club control,
as far as I see it, opener did not promise a diamond control.
5D by North is certainly denying a club control, otherwise what is stopping him from bidding 4NT?
It is also quite likely that 5D is a first round control.

hi,
My question about the club cue was in regards to South, there is no room for a 4C cue and "it certainly does not deny a club control" is a strong indication that
a 5C cue would have denied spade control.

[mike777]

Cuebidding above rKc ask is so difficult for must of us non expert level players

[mw64ahw]

Its better to show than ask so 4♠ would show even keycards with cue-bidding after that; stopping in 5♥ if necessary.
With odd keycards cue above 4♠

[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2026-January-14, 08:21, said:

Cue bidding 1st and 2nd round controls, 4S is a cue, not kickback.

It's a good time to revisit cue bidding, what are your agreements? Is anything std in North America?
Is 4S first round control?
Does 4S deny a club cue?
If North cooperates with 5D do we also promise a club control?

Everything about 4S and 5D is standard and clear in Italy, at least.
4S is first or second level control, says nothing about clubs control, shows slam interest and obliges North to cooperate (even with a minimum).
5D is first or second level control and denies clubs control.
Now 5H by South is signoff, disappointed about clubs.

Where there is no standard is what 4NT by North after 4S would have meant: for some it is RKCB, for some Turbo, for a few Spades control. Note that this particular sequence is cramped and may be an exception when the agreement is that 4NT by a partner who has not made a control bid himself is RKCB.

[pescetom]

--

[jillybean]

pescetom, on 2026-January-14, 12:39, said:

Everything about 4S and 5D is standard and clear in Italy, at least.
4S is first or second level control, says nothing about clubs control, shows slam interest and obliges North to cooperate (even with a minimum).
5D is first or second level control and denies clubs control.
Now 5H by South is signoff, disappointed about clubs.

Where there is no standard is what 4NT by North after 4S would have meant: for some it is RKCB, for some Turbo, for a few Spades control. Note that this particular sequence is cramped and may be an exception when the agreement is that 4NT by a partner who has not made a control bid himself is RKCB.

This was my understanding, 4nt is dangerous territory! There were strong, varying opinions voiced at the table after this auction.

[pescetom]

 jillybean, on 2026-January-14, 16:59, said:

This was my understanding, 4nt is dangerous territory! There were strong, varying opinions voiced at the table after this auction.

I prefer to play 4NT as Turbo here (partner holds the strong hand and is interested in controls, otherwise he could have bid RKCB himself) which is an exception to the general rule, but with weaker partners it is better to keep the agreements simple and avoid mishaps.

Fortunately it's a situation that rarely occurs, in a contested auction we can often control-bid over some artificial fit showing bid and in an uncontested auction a strong Responder can take things slowly and get to control-bid above 3M as is optimal.

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean, on 2026-January-14, 16:59, said:

This was my understanding, 4nt is dangerous territory! There were strong, varying opinions voiced at the table after this auction.

The alternative to the keycard 4NT is what?
4NT instead of 4S, instead of whatever over 4S.

I dont use keycard often, I think most player rush using keycard,
but in the given seq, what would be a different meaning?

Keycard has a purpose: checking the trump suit quality.

[pescetom]

 P_Marlowe, on 2026-January-15, 06:31, said:

The alternative to the keycard 4NT is what?
4NT instead of 4S, instead of whatever over 4S.

I dont use keycard often, I think most player rush using keycard,
but in the given seq, what would be a different meaning?

Keycard has a purpose: checking the trump suit quality.

I'm not certain I understand your first question, which is difficult to parse.
4NT instead of a 4S control-bid would be RKCB for almost anyone, I think.
But if we prefer to bid 4S, we clearly don't think keycards are sufficient to decide and so it seems doubly illogical for partner to take control and ask keycards himself, instead of collaborating.
If your question is "what are other possible meanings for 4NT over 4S?", then I already listed two common (in Italy, at least) alternative meanings: Turbo (which gives a good part of the same information about trump suit quality, without nuking the control showing sequence) or a responsive control-bid showing spades control.