[Shugart23]

Trying to come up with an algorithm for the following: Partner opens artificial 1D with 11-15 and I respond 1S showing 4+. If he rebids either 2C or 2D he is showing his 6+ card minor suit (he could be void in Diamonds if he bids 2C). I respond 2S showing 5+ and an interest in game - say 10/11 plus HCP. Looking for game in Spades or NT

I'm thinking Opener's responses are 3H or 3S, both showing a Spade fragment and minimum or maximum HCP respectively. This leaves, 2NT,3C,3D, and 3NT as available bids all which deny a Spade fragment.

We can presume the spade bidder has spades stopped and the Opener has the minor stopped, so I give the following meanings to Opener's 3rd bid:

2NT shows a maximum hand, the lower unbid suit stopped
3 of Opener's minor shows a minimum hand, suggesting playing
3 of the other minors shows the higher suit stopped, maximum hand
3NT shows maximum hand and both unbid suits stopped.


What could go wrong ?

[mike777]

So on the auction misfit of:
1D=1S
2C=2S
3D=?

Where are your tricks coming from?
You have your 14, partner has their 10-11

Or
When opener shows their 11 points and you are at 3 of your minor?

How does responder play in 2S with less than inV, more than WJS?

[Shugart23]

Thank you for the questions. Question 1. With 25 hcp and misfit, where else to play but 3Nt. Question 2. Not seeing how we end up at 3 of my minor. Question 3I would pass the 2 of a minor bid with weak 5 card Major holding , unless I have some minor support If those are my answers, how do you think that compares to the room ? is there a way to shore it up?

[DavidKok]

There is an analogous auction in standard Precision. In that system the 2♣ opening shows 6(+), and a 2♠ response is not forcing, invitational and shows 5(+) spades. You could use the rebids of that system (mostly natural descriptive, not based on stoppers) as a starting point.

[Shugart23]

Yeah. I have looked at that. A big difference here is partnership has two bids eg 1D-1M-2C (or 1D-1M-2D). And partnerships also knows Responder has a Major before he shows his long minor. The Precusikn opener who opens 2C doesn’t have that info , so I think the former has a possible advantage. I’m trying to come up with a consistent algorithm for 1D-1M (either)-2m ( either ). . (The case 1D-1H-2C is easiest because a little more bidding g space). Thanks David.

[mycroft]

Both minors bid something else after 1M?

[Shugart23]

Sorry. If I’m not clear. What do you mean ? opener does not have both minors He has long clubs or long diamonds ( or Nt shape.but could not be opened 1Nt).

[DavidKok]

Shugart23, on 2026-April-19, 10:05, said:

Yeah. I have looked at that. A big difference here is partnership has two bids eg 1D-1M-2C (or 1D-1M-2D). And partnerships also knows Responder has a Major before he shows his long minor. The Precusikn opener who opens 2C doesn’t have that info , so I think the former has a possible advantage. I’m trying to come up with a consistent algorithm for 1D-1M (either)-2m ( either ). . (The case 1D-1H-2C is easiest because a little more bidding g space). Thanks David.

I think you have ceded any possible advantage by doubling the hand types in this sequence and making responder's rebid 5(+). Since your 1♦ opening may contain either minor, the fact that 2♣ and 2♦ are available is not an advantage. Since responder only knows about the hand type by the 2m level, responder has no advantage. The only benefit is the negative inference from the lack of a raise.

I am not sure what your system opens with e.g. 1=3=5=4. Beware, I think it is very common for Precision system builders to end up with an unplayable nebulous 1♦ opening because they want everything else to be sunshine and rainbows. I recommend starting at the other extreme: aim for a Precision variant with a 1♦ that does well on competitive auctions, and let the constructive sequences and other openings take the hits.

[Shugart23]

 DavidKok, on 2026-April-19, 10:17, said:

I think you have ceded any possible advantage by doubling the hand types in this sequence and making responder's rebid 5(+). Since your 1♦ opening may contain either minor, the fact that 2♣ and 2♦ are available is not an advantage. Since responder only knows about the hand type by the 2m level, responder has no advantage. The only benefit is the negative inference from the lack of a raise.

I am not sure what your system opens with e.g. 1=3=5=4. Beware, I think it is very common for Precision system builders to end up with an unplayable nebulous 1♦ opening because they want everything else to be sunshine and rainbows. I recommend starting at the other extreme: aim for a Precision variant with a 1♦ that does well on competitive auctions, and let the constructive sequences and other openings take the hits.

We are actually shifting away from precision and heading toward canapé , and this is a first step to resolve. 2D openings will show 54 in minors with an emphasis on diamonds being longer than clubs and 2C openings will be the 3 suited hand. So the 1D opening really is not that nebulous.
So the question I am pondering is specifically when you have a 5 card space suit with invitational values and you hear 1D opening. If you respond 1S, and if opener bids anything but 2m, you know he has NT shape and know his point count.
I’m pondering

[DavidKok]

I've written a lot about canapé strong club systems in the past. If you're interested, please give that a read. Generally though, I think both the prevaling wisdom on canapé and the traditional canapé systems from the 60's (as well as their modern adaptations) are misguided. It's a very niche area of bidding theory and most of the ideas behind it are hopelessly outdated, to the point of being unplayable today. Similarly, the most common discussions and opinions I see on canapé are to me a waste of time. The traditional style did not survive interaction with modern competitive bidding.

[foobar]

DavidKok, on 2026-April-19, 10:17, said:

I think you have ceded any possible advantage by doubling the hand types in this sequence and making responder's rebid 5(+). Since your 1♦ opening may contain either minor, the fact that 2♣ and 2♦ are available is not an advantage. Since responder only knows about the hand type by the 2m level, responder has no advantage. The only benefit is the negative inference from the lack of a raise.

I am not sure what your system opens with e.g. 1=3=5=4. Beware, I think it is very common for Precision system builders to end up with an unplayable nebulous 1♦ opening because they want everything else to be sunshine and rainbows. I recommend starting at the other extreme: aim for a Precision variant with a 1♦ that does well on competitive auctions, and let the constructive sequences and other openings take the hits.

+1 to the above. IMO, Nystrom-Upmark (1♦ as major-minor canape or balanced outside NT range) is a big improvement on the Precision 1♦ opening.

[Shugart23]

The 1D bid will show the major canapé. But not immediately. Going in steps.

[Shugart23]

 DavidKok, on 2026-April-19, 10:41, said:

I've written a lot about canapé strong club systems in the past. If you're interested, please give that a read. Generally though, I think both the prevaling wisdom on canapé and the traditional canapé systems from the 60's (as well as their modern adaptations) are misguided. It's a very niche area of bidding theory and most of the ideas behind it are hopelessly outdated, to the point of being unplayable today. Similarly, the most common discussions and opinions I see on canapé are to me a waste of time. The traditional style did not survive interaction with modern competitive bidding.

[Shugart23]

Well. I will not presume to disagree with you. But I played OCP precision with my wife for about 6 years and it eventually just got routine and boring. learned MICS, made some tweaks, and just had a ball with it for 2-3 years. And fun is what it’s all about in the end

[Shugart23]

 Shugart23, on 2026-April-19, 11:06, said:

Well. I will not presume to disagree with you. But I played OCP precision with my wife for about 6 years and it eventually just got routine and boring. learned MICS, made some tweaks, and just had a ball with it for 2-3 years. And fun is what it’s all about in the end

My big complaint was I hated opening 1D and getting over called 1M

[Shugart23]

Shugart23, on 2026-April-19, 11:33, said:

My big complaint was I hated opening 1D and getting over called 1M

anyway got distracted Here is my Final Answer, until I change it when bidding has gone 1D-1M-2m-2M -? Opener has a long minor, no 4 card Major and 11-15 HCP

with a supporting fragment, give a simple raise with a minimum and bid one OVER a simple raise with a maximum, accepting the invite
with no fragment and a minimum, retreat to your minor at the 3 level
remaining bids then , show a maximum and deny a fragment. With both suits stopped bid 2NT ( assumed the minor and the Major are stopped)
With only one of the outstanding suits stopped, bid it
With neither suit stopped, retreat to 3 of your minor

[mike777]

 Shugart23, on 2026-April-19, 08:33, said:

Thank you for the questions. Question 1. With 25 hcp and misfit, where else to play but 3Nt. Question 2. Not seeing how we end up at 3 of my minor. Question 3I would pass the 2 of a minor bid with weak 5 card Major holding , unless I have some minor support If those are my answers, how do you think that compares to the room ? is there a way to shore it up?

1. So you will often lack a source of tricks?
2. Is not opener's third bid with a minimum his long minor? With no fit very often
3. How does responder with 6s sign off in 2S with more than a WJS which I assume you are playing but less than invitational values?
4. Also it appears you end up playing in 3S with an 8 card fit and both minimum hands?
1d=1S
2C=2s
3h?=3S

Granted specifically with long clubs, I may up in 2C, missing the spade part score, unfortunately, smile
Fortunately opponents seem to interfere so often over one club(2+) auctions, perhaps in practice a minor concern..

[Zelandakh]

Shugart23, on 2026-April-19, 05:51, said:

What could go wrong ?

What are the allowed shapes for Opener? What is the expected auction when Opener has 11-15 and 5-4 or 5-5 minors?

[Shugart23]

mike777, on 2026-April-19, 16:28, said:

1. So you will often lack a source of tricks?
2. Is not opener's third bid with a minimum his long minor? With no fit very often
3. How does responder with 6s sign off in 2S with more than a WJS which I assume you are playing but less than invitational values?
4. Also it appears you end up playing in 3S with an 8 card fit and both minimum hands?
1d=1S
2C=2s
3h?=3S

Granted specifically with long clubs, I may up in 2C, missing the spade part score, unfortunately, smile
Fortunately opponents seem to interfere so often over one club(2+) auctions, perhaps in practice a minor concern..

This is not something we are playing but I am trying to come up with something that might work for 1D-1M -2m - 2M forcing - ? currently we are playing a precision system where we open 2C with the long clubs and currently our 2C does deny holding a 4 card Major (we open 2M with 4 cards in the Major and a longer minor)


In answer to Z's question, opening 2D is 54 (or 64) in the minors and opening 2NT is 55 minors according to MICS.(modified Italian canape system)

1) yes, I suppose that is true but I don't know if often . 2) yes, often ending up at 3 of opener's minor..3) tbh, I haven't thought about 1D-2M...given that the 1D bid could have 3 possible hand types (long club, long diamonds, NT shape and eventually a canape ), I don't think I jump shift over 1D. 4) seems true

[awm]

One tweak you might want to consider is to allow opener to rebid 3♣ when holding long diamonds to show a club control, even with a minimum. The problem sequence is:

1♦ - 1♠
2♦ - 2♠
3♦?

Now responder knows that opener is minimum and does not have 3♠. But he doesn't know anything about opener's round suit holdings. Presumably 3♥ here is either showing or asking in hearts (your choice) but you likely want 3♠ by responder on the third round to be natural. You can perhaps fix this by allowing opener to rebid 3♣ with a club control, so that 3♦ is a minimum with no club control. Now 3♥ by responder in this sequence would be asking about hearts (since asking about clubs is pointless), and you can always decide whether 3NT is playable.

Note that there's no corresponding problem with clubs, because after 1♦ - 1M - 2♣ - 2M - 3♣ you have both 3♦ and 3OM available.