[pescetom]

playing 5cM with strong NT, your partner opens 1m more or less natural, his LHO overcalls 2M described as weak.
What are your agreements for Double and the various possible bids?

[TylerE]

Just standard stuff. X is negative, bids are natural and forcing. Might make sense to play a lebensohl type structure here, but in my main partnership we don't. Honestly, it's not generally an action I expect to score very well for our opponents most of the time, so we just want to get to our obvious games/slams and otherwise I'm happy to sit back and collect 50 (or especially 100) a trick, like if I've got some random 9 count or something. Precision partnership with 14-16 NT so I know (Assuming a 1d opening and not 1c) partner is max 13 balanced or a bad-average 15 unbalanced.

[pescetom]

Thanks, although I did say 1m more or less natural. Either both 3+ cards or clubs 2+ (2 only in 4432) and diamonds 4+, both unlimited 12(11)+ HCP.

[TylerE]

pescetom, on 2026-June-10, 15:34, said:

Thanks, although I did say 1m more or less natural. At most clubs 2+ in 4432 and diamonds 4+, both unlimited 12(11)+ HCP.

You asked what I would do given a 5cM/Strong NT framework. You didn't specify an exact system.

[bluenikki]

TylerE, on 2026-June-10, 14:56, said:

Just standard stuff. X is negative,

But isn't the issue what the meaning of "double" is at that level? How firm is the promise of 4+ in the other major?

[mike777]

Pretty firm.
98.61%

[awm]

Double definitely shows the other major. New suits natural and forcing (three-level new suits game forcing). Simple raise is something like 8-11 and usually five-card support (maybe four is possible in a pinch). 2NT natural. Double and then freely bid the other major is constructive but not forcing.

We do play lebensohl in the auction 1m-(2M)-Pass-(Pass)-Dbl-(Pass); so bidding directly here shows some values (typically like 7-10, enough for game opposite 18-19 balanced for example) while going through 2NT is weaker.

[pescetom]

 awm, on 2026-June-11, 01:31, said:

Double definitely shows the other major. New suits natural and forcing (three-level new suits game forcing). Simple raise is something like 8-11 and usually five-card support (maybe four is possible in a pinch). 2NT natural. Double and then freely bid the other major is constructive but not forcing.

When you say 2NT natural, does that imply both NF and some degree of stop in opponent's suit?

What is a cue (so at 3 level, but non-jump) of opponents' major suit? Another raise of Opener's minor, a splinter raise, or a stopper ask? If not a stopper ask, then how does one go about seeking 3NT with 13-16 but no stopper: bid 3 in the other minor as game force? What are the meanings of Opener's 3M rebids after that?

[mw64ahw]

I aim to mirror the transfer lebensohl approach I play over 1N, easier on the memory.
1♣ is often a Weak NT and playing an unbalanced ♦ the 2M overcall mostly represents opener's shortage.
X is invitational with the other Major or 5+♣ if partner opened 1♦

[awm]

pescetom, on 2026-June-11, 02:14, said:

When you say 2NT natural, does that imply both NF and some degree of stop in opponent's suit?

What is a cue (so at 3 level, but non-jump) of opponents' major suit? Another raise of Opener's minor, a splinter raise, or a stopper ask? If not a stopper ask, then how does one go about seeking 3NT with 13-16 but no stopper: bid 3 in the other minor as game force? What are the meanings of Opener's 3M rebids after that?

2NT is invitational, it's around 10-12 HCP with a stopper in the opposing suit.

Cuebid is a game-forcing raise of opener's minor, but unless holding a lot of extras opener's priority will be to bid 3NT with a stopper. The "stopper ask" hand you're referring to is pretty narrow -- you have less than four in the other major (else double or free bid), less than four in partner's suit (else cue to raise), and less than five in the other minor. So after 1♣-(2♠) for example you are pretty much 3343 with no spade control (or perhaps some shapes with four spades, although with a holding like ♠Jxxx or even ♠Txxx I'd tend to bid notrump since I won't convince partner that singleton queen is a sufficient stopper). This is quite a rare hand, and most likely I would bid my four-card minor if it came up.

[pescetom]

awm, on 2026-June-11, 05:11, said:

2NT is invitational, it's around 10-12 HCP with a stopper in the opposing suit.

Cuebid is a game-forcing raise of opener's minor, but unless holding a lot of extras opener's priority will be to bid 3NT with a stopper. The "stopper ask" hand you're referring to is pretty narrow -- you have less than four in the other major (else double or free bid), less than four in partner's suit (else cue to raise), and less than five in the other minor. So after 1♣-(2♠) for example you are pretty much 3343 with no spade control (or perhaps some shapes with four spades, although with a holding like ♠Jxxx or even ♠Txxx I'd tend to bid notrump since I won't convince partner that singleton queen is a sufficient stopper). This is quite a rare hand, and most likely I would bid my four-card minor if it came up.

Thanks, makes sense.

Here is the hand that prompted the discussion.

MP

---

South meant 3♥ as a stopper ask, according to Italian tradition.
North took it as a forcing clubs raise and bid natural spades, either failing to infer that South with 4 would have doubled or concerned about his opening being insufficient to support 3N or 5♣.
The root cause of disaster is the opening too weak for the system, but that asides both were concerned about how to revise and improve agreements.

[mike777]

 pescetom, on 2026-June-11, 05:38, said:

Thanks, makes sense.

Here is the hand that prompted the discussion.

MP

---

South meant 3♥ as a stopper ask, according to Italian tradition.
North took it as a forcing clubs raise and bid natural spades, either failing to infer that South with 4 would have doubled or concerned about his opening being insufficient to support 3N or 5♣.
The root cause of disaster is the opening too weak for the system, but that asides both were concerned about how to revise and improve agreements.

I am down in 5C, after 3D response
Would not worry too much about this one
Other tables will get a 3H or even 4H preemptive bid at this vul.

Next board partner

[apollo1201]

 pescetom, on 2026-June-11, 05:38, said:

both were concerned about how to revise and improve agreements.

You cannot express the 3 following hands with the 2 calls that tjhe overcall leaves you, namely X and cue-bid:
- other M
- forcing raise
- stopper ask

One call needs to have both possible meanings, generally the cue at this level is stopper ask or forcing raise, more often X over 3M becomes other M or stopper ask (for lack of space, partner trying to bid 3NT with M stopped even sometimes with 4 in the other M, bad breaks are likely, etc, a bit like over for instance 1D and 3H overcall, you tend to bid 3NT rather than lookfor a S fit with Kxxx Axx Jx AJxx).

[bluenikki]

awm, on 2026-June-11, 05:11, said:

2NT is invitational, it's around 10-12 HCP with a stopper in the opposing suit.

Do you have a history of good results with that bid over a 2-level bid by opps?

I have had good results from refusing to declare 2NT after a competitive auction. Either bid game or chicken out in a suit.

[pescetom]

 apollo1201, on 2026-June-12, 09:22, said:

You cannot express the 3 following hands with the 2 calls that tjhe overcall leaves you, namely X and cue-bid:
- other M
- forcing raise
- stopper ask

One call needs to have both possible meanings, generally the cue at this level is stopper ask or forcing raise, more often X over 3M becomes other M or stopper ask (for lack of space, partner trying to bid 3NT with M stopped even sometimes with 4 in the other M, bad breaks are likely, etc, a bit like over for instance 1D and 3H overcall, you tend to bid 3NT rather than lookfor a S fit with Kxxx Axx Jx AJxx).

Yes I agree. Over 3M we had no doubt about what to do, 2M hit a weak point in our agreements which this discussion has filled. Thanks to all.