[Badmonster]

I've seen this happen several times in the past few weeks. What is it that no one ever explained to me? Isn't gerber blackwood for nt?

[inquiry]

Gerber is certainly most appropriate over notrump. However, a lot of people use 4C and or 4D as a roman keycard blackwood on certain auctions. For instance, if 1C-2C or 1M-2C are game force, then bids of 4C on these auctions are often treated as keycard ask.

The reason for this, if clubs (or diamonds) is the agreed upon trump suit, using 4NT as keycard ask runs out of real-estate much too quickly. Obviously over 4NT keycard ask, only one response will allow you to stop in 5C,

Of course, then 4C isn't really Gerber, is it.. .it is leycard Blackwood of sometype.

[pmacfar]

In addition to the 4C bid over NT being Gerber, a few of my regular partners and I use 4C as Gerber when either of the following occurs:

1. A natural club bid has not been made. or,
2. The 4C bid results in a jump (by passing the three level)

Phil

[Stephen Tu]

Besides some game forcing auctions with clubs as trumps (where it's often termed "minorwood" or "kickback", it's also reasonable and somewhat popular to use it over partner's major suit preempts, since they are otherwise well constrained, trying to play the safer 4M rather than 5M if not going to slam.

But I would not go as far as pmacfar; in most auctions it is going to be far more useful to use 4C as showing some sort of control in clubs, or a splinter/fragment bid, than to use it to ask for aces rather than 4NT.

[luis]

Gerber? This thread should be deleted due to inapropiate material. Ladies may read it, even kids!

[whereagles]

Ditto. Gerber = teh evil.

[luke warm]

i see nothing at all wrong with gerber over 1 or 2 nt... i'll let louis and whereagles tell me where the theoretical evil is after 2nt : 4c

[Stephen Tu]

It's opportunity cost of not letting it mean something else. You just don't get the hand to use it frequently enough. I bid Gerber over 1nt/2nt maybe once every couple years. I suspect it's best to use it in conjunction with 3S (and possibly 3nt, if you are willing to risk non-natural meaning for 3nt) to construct a better minor suit slam investigation scheme than most people have. The only reason I still use 4♣ as Gerber in my regular partnerships is I haven't seen a really good alternate scheme yet. Anybody have one?

[luis]

luke warm, on Aug 2 2005, 11:16 PM, said:

i see nothing at all wrong with gerber over 1 or 2 nt... i'll let louis and whereagles tell me where the theoretical evil is after 2nt : 4c

I don't think I can even speak about it, too scary.
But basically whereagles is right , Gerber is evil and should not be used.

[Free]

I know several players who always use 4♣ for ace asking purposes. Would it be coinsidence, but they're all pretty low-level players...

Don't get me wrong here, I like 4♣ as minorwood (RKC with ♣ as trumps when a fit has been established) and 4♦ as minorwood as well. Just not a general agreement whenever any fit or non fit has been found.

[Badmonster]

inquiry, on Aug 2 2005, 11:48 AM, said:

However, a lot of people use 4C and or 4D as a roman keycard blackwood on certain auctions. For instance, if 1C-2C or 1M-2C are game force, then bids of 4C on these auctions are often treated as keycard ask.



Of course, then 4C isn't really Gerber, is it.. .it is leycard Blackwood of sometype.

The problem is that it is being alerted as gerber. And my mind is too slow and ponderous to make the adjustment.

[whereagles]

The main reason why gerber should be proscribed from the history books is it leads to ENDLESS confusion as to what a 4C bid is. No matter how many 'good rules' you think you come up with, for every time you use gerber, practice shows there is another time where gerber leads to a costly mix-up.

So.. basically what I am saying is this: the world is better off without gerber. Or, in other words, gerber is teh evil.

[mike777]

Badmonster, on Aug 2 2005, 09:22 PM, said:

inquiry, on Aug 2 2005, 11:48 AM, said:

However, a lot of people use 4C and or 4D as a roman keycard blackwood on certain auctions. For instance, if 1C-2C or 1M-2C are game force, then bids of 4C on these auctions are often treated as keycard ask.



Of course, then 4C isn't really Gerber, is it.. .it is leycard Blackwood of sometype.

The problem is that it is being alerted as gerber. And my mind is too slow and ponderous to make the adjustment.

Good grief use kickback and 4d and key card, why get confused with Gerber when you can get confused with Kickback when clubs are trump?

[hrothgar]

All depends on what you mean by "Gerber"...

If we "simply" refering to using 4♣ as an artifical bid asking partner to clarify his controls, then there is an enormous number of practical examples...

Using the auction 2M - (P) - 4♣ as some kind of compressed Blackwood is almost standard in some circles.

[1eyedjack]

luke warm, on Aug 3 2005, 12:16 AM, said:

i see nothing at all wrong with gerber over 1 or 2 nt... i'll let louis and whereagles tell me where the theoretical evil is after 2nt : 4c

Perhaps more of a case for it over 1NT, because you can show just about everything else that you want without requiring 4C for some other use.
But 2NT-4C??
The "slam-killer" 2NT opener has already consumed so much bidding space that use of 4C as otherwise than shape describer appears non-optimal to me, not least because the frequency of responder's hands that can place the final contract purely on the number of Aces without any further clarification of the 2N opener seem rather rare. A lot more rare than the instances in which Gerber is used in practice, I feel.

[helene_t]

In Lawrence's workbook, the rule is that a jump to 4♣ is Gerber when it logically can't be a splinter: if clubs has allready been bid or if there is no implied fit. Otherwise you can ask for aces with 5♣. A jump to 4NT is generally quantitative.

Now add Niemeijer and Redwood to your system script and you have six diferent calls that can be used for keycard asking. Too complicated for me. If partner insist on being able to ask keycards yet can't distinguish RKC-Blackwood from quanti, then I guess I could live with this agreement: a jump to 4♣ allways asks keycards for the last suggested trump suit. If it's too late to jump to 4♣, no keycard asking is possible. A non-jump 4♣ is by default natural, otherwise shows a club control.

[joker_gib]

luis, on Aug 3 2005, 01:46 AM, said:

luke warm, on Aug 2 2005, 11:16 PM, said:

i see nothing at all wrong with gerber over 1 or 2 nt... i'll let louis and whereagles tell me where the theoretical evil is after 2nt : 4c

I don't think I can even speak about it, too scary.
But basically whereagles is right , Gerber is evil and should not be used.

I agree and will never play that convention !

Alain

[hrothgar]

I don't see wht folks get so worked up about Gerber...
The real problem is yahoo's who mistake quantitative NTs for Blackwood...

I think that Gerber serves a very valuable purpose in reminding said folks that 4NT often doesn't ask for aces...

[1eyedjack]

hrothgar, on Aug 3 2005, 10:08 PM, said:

I don't see wht folks get so worked up about Gerber

There are two distinct problems with Gerber, and the same goes for Blackwood.

(1) There may be a better use for the bid, and
(2) There is a tendency to use the bid in inappropriate situations.

The desire for a quantitative 4N bid in many situations makes problem (1) more acute for Blackwood. The desire for bidding space (for other purposes) in many situations makes problem (1) more acute for Gerber. In both conventions, however, problem (2) is I perceive the major headache. With a regular partner who has a few brain cells problem (2) can be overcome. However it is so endemic a problem with a pickup partner that their slam bidding would probably be improved if they were forced to find an alternative route to slam because you refuse to play their pet convention. Refusal may lose out on the odd occasion that the ace ask is the right approach, but should gain in the longer term.

[luke warm]

i still don't see any problem at all in using gerber over nt only... if there are better uses for the bid, that's one thing... i don't generally play gerber, but there have been times as responder when all i wanted to know was the number of aces opener held... maybe not many times, but they have existed