[Chamaco]

Team match,
all vulnerable

Pard deals and opens a short club (= clubs or weak NT), and opp overcall hearts.
You hold ATxxx-x-AJx-T9xx

1C-(1H)-1S-(3H)
p-(p)-?

When the bidding comes back at the 3 level after opps preemptive raise, what do you bid ?
We play support double at this level so pard's pass denied 3 card support in spades.

[P_Marlowe]

3S

Your most likely game is still 4S,
if you double you may endplay partner
into passing.

Marlowe

[whereagles]

4♣. Assuming pard would double with 3 spades and open a 44 minor in 1♦, his worst shape is 2434. We should have a play for 4♣, modulo bad breaks.

[joker_gib]

Pass

Everything can be wrong and I'm not strong enough. Let's try to beat 3♥ !

Alain

[FrancesHinden]

Chamaco, on Nov 22 2005, 03:26 AM, said:

We play support double at this level so pard's pass denied 3 card support in spades.

Frightening. You are committed to playing 3Hx or 3S with

Kxx
Kx
Kxx
Kxxxx

opposite

QJxx
xx
Axxx
xxx

?

rather you than me....

[Chamaco]

FrancesHinden, on Nov 22 2005, 10:44 AM, said:

Chamaco, on Nov 22 2005, 03:26 AM, said:

We play support double at this level so pard's pass denied 3 card support in spades.

Frightening. You are committed to playing 3Hx or 3S with

--- CUT ---


rather you than me....

Thanks for the constructive reply to this post.

I usually try to avoid replying to psts if I am not saying anything constructive.
Not that I always succeed, but I try.

I still ignore what's your bid and why given the original hand and the given agreement.

[joker_gib]

Dear Mauro,

I think this is constructive. She just tells you that support doubles at those levels are dangerous (and generally not played) and I agree

Alain

[Chamaco]

joker_gib, on Nov 22 2005, 11:03 AM, said:

Dear Mauro,

I think this is constructive. She just tells you that support doubles at those levels are dangerous (and generally not played) and I agree

Alain

In my view, if it was constructive, it would have been something like:

"support X here is a bad idea beause XXX.
Anyways, given such agreement, I'd bid YYY"

Without the second part, the message does not contribute to solving the question I asked.

The point is, we have already many threads explaining the issues with support doubles at a high level.
However, *with this specific partner*, I had it agreed, despite the fact I don't like it anymore.
*I* don't like it, Frances does not like it, but for this hand, the agreement was just that and I had to live with it.

Responding like Frances did is like if I posted a thread on a hand to be bid using Precision, and sonmeone sticks in saying: "Ugh ! Precision is not good, what if they preempt you ? Better you than me..."

See ? In my opinion this is the kind of "wannabe witty" comments, that I gladly accept when they are accompanied with a REAL reply to the REAL question of the thread.

But, when these comments are just posted alone without contributing with a real answer to the thread, I think it's just a way to showoff.

[luke warm]

i'd pass... 3h might make but i have nothing to bid...

[david_c]

Pass from me.

If partner had actually opened a weak 1NT there would be no way I'd be competing above 3♥ on this hand. We're in a slightly different situation here, but we still have to assume he has a weak NT hand. Certainly, we can deduce that partner has at least four clubs, probably five, so it may be right to try for 4♣, but game seems highly unlikely and this is not the right vulnerability for competing for a part-score.

[leboulepat]

Chamaco, on Nov 22 2005, 03:26 AM, said:

Team match,
all vulnerable

Pard deals and opens a short club (= clubs or weak NT), and opp overcall hearts.
You hold ATxxx-x-AJx-T9xx

1C-(1H)-1S-(3H)
p-(p)-?

When the bidding comes back at the 3 level after opps preemptive raise, what do you bid ?
We play support double at this level so pard's pass denied 3 card support in spades.

i double. i support 4♣ and 3♠, perhaps we play the game. And if partner pass i have 2 tricks promissed. [QUOTE]

[pbleighton]

"Pass

Everything can be wrong and I'm not strong enough. Let's try to beat 3♥ !"

Agree.

Peter

[Al_U_Card]

you have a slight BOP but they have 9 trumps. The break will annoy them, but they have your S under control and the C are likely breaking 3-1 etc. So many negatives. Since the field will not be playing support dbls at this level (there is some advantage to this agreement of yours) Pass and hope to go plus....

[joker_gib]

[quote name='leboulepat' date='Nov 22 2005, 03:10 PM'] [quote name='Chamaco' date='Nov 22 2005, 03:26 AM'] Team match,
all vulnerable

Pard deals and opens a short club (= clubs or weak NT), and opp overcall hearts.
You hold  ATxxx-x-AJx-T9xx

1C-(1H)-1S-(3H)
p-(p)-?

When the bidding comes back at the 3 level after opps preemptive raise, what do you bid ?
[u]We play support double at this level so pard's pass denied 3 card support in spades.[/u] [/quote]
i double. i support 4[cl] and 3[sp], perhaps we play the game. And if partner pass i have 2 tricks promissed. [QUOTE] [/quote]
Welcome to the forum, my friend !!!!

[FrancesHinden]

Chamaco, on Nov 22 2005, 06:07 AM, said:

joker_gib, on Nov 22 2005, 11:03 AM, said:

Dear Mauro,

I think this is constructive. She just tells you that support doubles at those levels are dangerous (and generally not played) and I agree

Alain

In my view, if it was constructive, it would have been something like:

"support X here is a bad idea beause XXX.
Anyways, given such agreement, I'd bid YYY"

Without the second part, the message does not contribute to solving the question I asked.

The point is, we have already many threads explaining the issues with support doubles at a high level.
However, *with this specific partner*, I had it agreed, despite the fact I don't like it anymore.
*I* don't like it, Frances does not like it, but for this hand, the agreement was just that and I had to live with it.

Responding like Frances did is like if I posted a thread on a hand to be bid using Precision, and sonmeone sticks in saying: "Ugh ! Precision is not good, what if they preempt you ? Better you than me..."

See ? In my opinion this is the kind of "wannabe witty" comments, that I gladly accept when they are accompanied with a REAL reply to the REAL question of the thread.

But, when these comments are just posted alone without contributing with a real answer to the thread, I think it's just a way to showoff.

Well, I'm sorry I rubbed you up the wrong way.

I don't recall many threads discussing support doubles on this auction. I've never actually heard of anyone playing support doubles at the 3-level like this, for exactly the reason I gave. I think the "because XXX" was pretty clear from my example hand. If a support double is mandatory at the 3-level on a weak NT, then you should pre-alert it because I'm going to be raising to the 3-level a lot against you.

The Precision analogy is not entirely valid. At some point you get to a method where the response is "this agreement is so insane that it's not possible to ask a serious question while playing it".

Anyway, I can't answer the question because "clubs or weak NT" doesn't tell me what you open on a 2344 or a 2353 or a 2443 weak NT, which affects the answer.

If partner opens 1C on all weak NT hands I pass.
If partner opens 1C with clubs or a weak NT without four diamonds, I bid 4C as he now is either 2434 (unlikely on the auction) or has 5 clubs.

[Fluffy]

Chamaco, on Nov 22 2005, 11:07 AM, said:

In my view, if it was constructive, it would have been something like:

"support X here is a bad idea beause XXX.
Anyways, given such agreement, I'd bid YYY"

Support double is more than ok on this auction, but the difference is: it shows extra.

Wich means partner willpass with any minimum balanced, so he can still have 3♠

[joker_gib]

FrancesHinden, on Nov 22 2005, 03:50 PM, said:

If partner opens 1C on all weak NT hands I pass.

Mauro said 1♣ = either ♣ or weak NT so I assumed I did not know whether partner had ♣ when I gave my answer.

Alain

[Chamaco]

FrancesHinden, on Nov 22 2005, 02:50 PM, said:

Anyway, I can't answer the question because "clubs or weak NT" doesn't tell me what you open on a 2344 or a 2353 or a 2443 weak NT, which affects the answer.

Alain got it right: clubs or weak NT means that all weak NT are opened 1C, even with 4+ diamonds, and 1D is unbalanced.

Even a normal 5332 with 5 diamonds is opened 1C, unless diamonds are soo good and values concentrated so that opener decides to treat it as unbalanced.

=========

I mentioned support doubles (which I have come to dislike at the 3 level, convinced by previous threads), because , in this specific case, I think give an EXTRA information, so I expected it could help making the right decision, not to make it harder (after all, knowing pard does not have 3+ support is an info otherwise not available, despite the fact this loses other options).

[joker_gib]

Let me also add that I play 1m-(1♥)-1♠ = 5 cards (dbl with 4) so that it is easier for partner to bid 3♠ on these kind of auctions when he doesn't have much extras.

Alain

[SchTsch]

Hm... interesting problem. Pass looks almost automatic but...

If pard is unbalanced with clubs we could even have a game in clubs. It is not impossible just very unlikely. Alternative to pass is double.

It depends whether you are optimistic or pesimistic. If you double do it in tempo just like there is no other bid you could bid with your hand. This won't influence your partner, but it can leave impression to your opps that you know what you are doing.