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Who is "guilty"? To Bid Or Not To Bid

Poll: Bad result - who is to blame for it: opener, responder or both? (31 member(s) have cast votes)

Bad result - who is to blame for it: opener, responder or both?

  1. Opener (26 votes [83.87%])

    Percentage of vote: 83.87%

  2. Responder (3 votes [9.68%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.68%

  3. Both (2 votes [6.45%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.45%

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#1 User is offline   Helmer 

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Posted 2006-February-22, 16:36

Scoring: MP


Bidding:

South West North East
pass   pass 1♣    1♠
dbl     2♦      pass 2♥
pass  pass 3♣     3♦
pass  pass 4♣    dbl
pass pass   pass´

Result: 3♣ dbl -2 -300

Please vote and feel free to make a comment as well.
I have a few more boards, they are all from same tourney.
After some bad boards my pard called my bidding stupid - I promissed him that I would ask the forum here - so please make your call.
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#2 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2006-February-22, 16:43

Dunno what responder would've done wrong, he just showed ♥ and that's the end of it, so nothing wrong. Guess what: opener bids ♣ 3 times with a pass in between. What's that all about???

Opener 100%
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#3 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2006-February-22, 16:47

3♣ is a misdeed (opener knows they are in a 7-card fit), but 4♣ is a crime. Guilty, next please.

Arend
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#4 User is offline   hotShot 

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Posted 2006-February-22, 16:49

Responder promissed to have ♥, so i can hardly understand why opener shoud bid 3♣, if opps obviously have a misfit in 2♥. Bidding [4CL] makes no sence at all.
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#5 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2006-February-22, 16:50

What values should a neg x promise that forces to the 2 level?

This brings up an old but important issue of "getting in fast and then out"

My guess is most of the forum posters argue almost any hand with 4 hearts but I prefer to have more than this 4333 shape hand with 6hcp.

After passing with my 2 Kings I can show a max within my "pass box values"
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#6 User is offline   hotShot 

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Posted 2006-February-22, 16:57

Well responder is holding minimum here and i would have liked a little more, but opener is unlimited and can have a ♠ stop to play NT, even at the 1 level.
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#7 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2006-February-22, 17:03

There is no possible hand that opener could have for this auction to make sense. Impossible.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#8 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2006-February-22, 17:04

4C makes no sense. North had bid his hand fully, and had primarily defensive values.

3C is fine, at MP I think it is an excellent bid. If the opps are making even down 2 will be good, if the opps are down 3C might make etc. You might push them a level higher. After that though, north is done.

I would X with the south hand. It's certainly not pretty, but again south can forever hold his peace after that bid.
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#9 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2006-February-22, 17:06

The negative double was light, but hardly indictable.

3♣ was okay: the long, chunky ♠ argued against the bid, but otoh, passing 2♦ did not rate to be a success and even a 3rd seat 1♣ (which should rarely be light, having negative preemptive value) will not promise this playing strength/suit texture.

But 4♣ was idiotic: an insult to all other players. Responder heard 3♣: so opener has described his hand very well. 4♣ suggests that opener thinks his partner is a moron, incapable of bidding 4♣ when it is right, and that his opponents are not brave enough to double.
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#10 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2006-February-22, 18:11

North is getting too much credit. The negative double of 1S should show more than this. Otherwise, you will hang partner too often when he makes a lead-director. Give South a tad more, and 4CX is not off so much.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

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#11 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2006-February-22, 18:52

kenrexford, on Feb 23 2006, 02:11 AM, said:

North is getting too much credit. The negative double of 1S should show more than this. Otherwise, you will hang partner too often when he makes a lead-director. Give South a tad more, and 4CX is not off so much.

No. If you give South a tad more, then that would likely be stuff in hearts and diamonds, and it could just mean that 3♦ was going down, while 4♣ is still -300. North got a lot more club support than he was entitled to!

I don't like the negative double at all, but it has nothing at all to do with the bad result (rather to the contrary, it should have told North to pass 2♥).

Arend
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#12 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2006-February-22, 18:54

mikeh, on Feb 23 2006, 01:06 AM, said:

3♣ was okay: the long, chunky ♠ argued against the bid, but otoh, passing 2♦ did not rate to be a success and even a 3rd seat 1♣ (which should rarely be light, having negative preemptive value) will not promise this playing strength/suit texture.

Mike, 3♣ was balancing over 2♥, not over 2♦. I am sure this will affect your opinion...

Arend
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#13 User is offline   joshs 

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Posted 2006-February-22, 18:57

Helmer, on Feb 22 2006, 05:36 PM, said:

Scoring: MP


Bidding:

South West North East
pass   pass 1♣    1♠
dbl     2♦      pass 2♥
pass  pass 3♣     3♦
pass  pass 4♣    dbl
pass pass   pass´

Result: 3♣ dbl -2 -300

Please vote and feel free to make a comment as well.
I have a few more boards, they are all from same tourney.
After some bad boards my pard called my bidding stupid - I promissed him that I would ask the forum here - so please make your call.

The auction was fine through 3C. Taking them out of there 7 card fit is risky, and is especially risky since spades are likely 5-1 (from the pass of 2H holding at most 3 hearts), but the club suit is very strong and you are NV. Unluckily, they found a diamond fit next. At this point you have to hope that you have described your hand well enough to partner that he can make a good decision (you have shown a 6 card club suit and a min). Parter said, opposite that, the best you can do is defend 3D undoubled. I am not sure what additional information you have that can possibly justify overruling him.
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#14 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2006-February-22, 22:40

Just because the opps are in a 7 card fit doesn't mean they're going down.
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#15 User is offline   Limey_p 

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Posted 2006-February-22, 23:35

Responder should have more for his negative double, but opener's 4♣ is worst by far ... imo.

AP
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#16 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2006-February-23, 02:09

I can understand 3C, 4C is just asking the opponents to shoot you,
and they did happiliy accept your proposal.

Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#17 User is offline   Miron 

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Posted 2006-February-23, 02:42

3♣ are risky (he knows that opps are probably on 4-3 or 5-2 ♥ fit. Also he has four spades before spades.
4♣ are crazy. Partner balanced and opps move one level higher. Be happy for that.
I vote for Opener (although Responder has a small -).

edited: I changed opener/responder, sorry

This post has been edited by Miron: 2006-February-23, 03:49

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#18 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2006-February-23, 03:08

What mikeh and jlall said.
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#19 User is offline   joker_gib 

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Posted 2006-February-23, 03:22

As the others said, the negative dbl was a bit light but the auction was fine till 3♣.

I don't find a word for the 4♣ bid ;)

Alain
Alain
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#20 User is offline   Chamaco 

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Posted 2006-February-23, 03:32

OPENER:
1C is ok, 3C is already taking a very big risk, after hearing LHO bid spades (offside).
4C is unbelievable

RESPONDER:
IMO this negative double is too light to force at the 2 level, but of course this is matter of partnership discussion.
As I said in a previous post, perhaps I am becoming too conservative... however, it seems to me that bidding on such light shapeles hands might reap rewards in MP events, where the partscore fight is really hard... (although the contrasting argument would be that such light bids make it harder to double frisky opps at MP, because you never know how light partner can be)...
but I am wondering whether in a Team Match bidding on such values really helps...

Perhaps, rather than being too conservative, I should recover my previous recklessness and rather improve my card play... ;)
"Bridge is like dance: technique's important but what really matters is not to step on partner's feet !"
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