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Who is "guilty" -3. To Bid Or Not To Bid.

Poll: North, South or both? (21 member(s) have cast votes)

North, South or both?

  1. North (6 votes [28.57%])

    Percentage of vote: 28.57%

  2. South (2 votes [9.52%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.52%

  3. Both (13 votes [61.90%])

    Percentage of vote: 61.90%

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#1 User is offline   Helmer 

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Posted 2006-February-22, 17:07

Scoring: MP


Bidding:

North  East  South  West

pass   1♣    pass   1♥

dbl     1♠     2♦      2♠

pass   pass   3♦     3♠

dbl     pass   pass   pass

Actually here some more to vote for (but I donno how to make part polls). Should South bid in first round - and if yes what?
Should South bid different second or third time? And so on.
Should Norhth Double?

Yes a lot to discuss in this board.

Our defence was awfull - making 11 tricks after ♦J lead. I guess best we can do is maybe 4 tricks.

As the bidding was until 3♠, I guess many will say that North could be the bad guy for the penalty double. But what about the bidding before? Here I guess South is to blame. Or what do you say?

Please vote - and please make a comment.
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#2 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2006-February-22, 17:13

South should definitely bid on the first round. He has a nice pure offensive hand with a good suit. WHAT he should bid is open for debate, 1H, 2H, 2N, and 3H are all possible.

I would reject 2N as there is too much disparity between my suits, and my longer one is higher ranking.

I would also reject 2H because I think it's just plain wrong in playing strength, even at this vulnerability. With pure offensive hands and a good suit I like to jump as early as possible, so I'd try 3H. I'd have no problems with a 1H bid either though.

I LOVE norths X. I think more people should make these Xs, and that Xs in this position do not show opening bid values. They just show some shape and a willingness to compete. Now you have no problems if it goes 2H p p to you (if you hadn't Xed first you'd need to balance now, very risky).

edit north Xed 3S...that is also absurd. He has poor spades, poor values, and a poor hand.
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#3 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2006-February-22, 17:14

South's first pass was not good (to say the least, where was this hand played, a nursing home?) but unrelated to the final disaster.

Doubling 3S is bidding your hand twice. You have already told partner about your strength and your 4-spades, let partner make the decisions.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#4 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2006-February-22, 17:15

Justin, the final double is by north.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#5 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2006-February-22, 17:48

I like the nursing home comment. Certainly any one who passed over 1♣ is yearning for the quiet life, untroubled by the need to declare even routine contracts: 'wake me when the bidding is over'.

I would bid 1♥ and expect to be bidding more quite soon. Pass is incomprehensible.

I don't mind the initial double by North: it is light and I'd prefer better ♠ (but I often prefer better cards than I have and I still bid). 2♦ is an underbid but okay: South is never going to catch up after the first pass. 3♦ seems clear.

Double by N is sick.

I see a commonality between this hand and #2 in this series: north is an inexperienced player who has yet to learn a very important principle of partnership bidding.

The double described the hand. If asked to put it in words, the description of the double might read something like: I have 4♠ and probably 4♦ and shortish ♥ and close to an opening hand. I may have a much better hand than this, but, partner, make your next call based on this assumption: if I have more I will tell you later.

Ok, so then we have S taking two calls, which North should interprete as:

'thanks for describing your hand. Based on that description, and the enemy auction, I believe that I should bid 2♦ initially and then compete with 3♦'.

So then 3♠ is bid. What should North do?

HAS HE DESCRIBED HIS HAND?

IS THE PARTNERSHIP IN A FORCING SITUATION?

The answers are 'yes' and 'no'.

Having described his hand, and absent any forcing connotation to the auction, north has a very, very, clear pass.

Now, it is clear, from S's initial pass that S is also inexperienced and thus N may not be placing much trust in partner's bidding. But making egregious errors such as the double of 3♠ will not help partner understand how to bid his hand any better. It will merely worsen the situation: I suspect that competitive bidding is already quite mysterious and random to this partnership.
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#6 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2006-February-22, 17:54

Agree with all that mikeh said, except that north can have a much better hand: north has passed initially.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#7 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2006-February-22, 17:57

Hannie, on Feb 22 2006, 06:54 PM, said:

Agree with all that mikeh said, except that north can have a much better hand: north has passed initially.

thanks hannie, missed that: but doesn't change anything B)
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#8 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2006-February-22, 18:15

South had an aweful pass, the rest is just based on his bidding. If he'd shown a 6-5 in the reds, North wouldn't double!

So the blame for me is South. Imo North's Dbl isn't good as well, but it's based on a completely other hand from his partner, so it's not poor enough to assign blame. ;)
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#9 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2006-February-22, 18:21

Free, on Feb 22 2006, 07:15 PM, said:

but it's based on a completely other hand from his partner, so it's not poor enough to assign blame. ;)

What hand would that be?

South's bidding could be based on a wide range of shapes and strengths. North had defined his hand as a maxed pass hand with at least 4-4 in spades and diamonds.

Who is in a better position to evaluate what to do?
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#10 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2006-February-22, 18:27

South is in a better place here, since he knows he should pull... But he didn't ;)
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#11 User is offline   joshs 

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Posted 2006-February-22, 19:05

Helmer, on Feb 22 2006, 06:07 PM, said:

Scoring: MP


Bidding:

North  East  South  West

pass   1♣    pass   1♥

dbl     1♠     2♦      2♠

pass   pass   3♦     3♠

dbl     pass   pass   pass

Actually here some more to vote for (but I donno how to make part polls). Should South bid in first round - and if yes what?
Should South bid different second or third time? And so on.
Should Norhth Double?

Yes a lot to discuss in this board.

Our defence was awfull - making 11 tricks after ♦J lead. I guess best we can do is maybe 4 tricks.

As the bidding was until 3♠, I guess many will say that North could be the bad guy for the penalty double. But what about the bidding before? Here I guess South is to blame. Or what do you say?

Please vote - and please make a comment.

Hmm, I am still trying to process south's pass over 1C. It has to be correct to bid some number of hearts (I am not a bid fan of 2N with longer and stronger hearts). I am eclectic and have been known to bid 3H on this hand type but 1H or 2H is probably the normal bid at this vul.

Having passed he is screwed, but I can't see my self taking another call under any circumstances at any form of scoring with the north hand....
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#12 User is offline   Gerben42 

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Posted 2006-February-23, 03:30

100% guilt to both here.

South does NOT have a pass of 1♣, and North hardly has a dbl of 1♥, but surely not of 3♠.
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#13 User is offline   joker_gib 

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Posted 2006-February-23, 03:36

Agree that south must bid first round but the bad result comes from the horrible dbl of 3♠.

Alain
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#14 User is offline   hotShot 

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Posted 2006-February-23, 04:58

6-5 shape at the south hand should act first round. If you have a 2suiter convention use it or bit 1-3♥ according to your agreements.
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#15 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2006-February-23, 13:34

I really disagree with Free. Everybody agrees that the initial pass of south is terrible, but it is not an excuse for the double of 3S!
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#16 User is offline   hotShot 

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Posted 2006-February-24, 02:34

Hannie, on Feb 23 2006, 09:34 PM, said:

I really disagree with Free. Everybody agrees that the initial pass of south is terrible, but it is not an excuse for the double of 3S!

Please note that south passed first, bid 2♦ unforced and than volunteered to bid 3♦. This shows a maximum pass with long diamonds and should have some defence values. South is missdescribing his hand, instead of showing a good offence because of distribution, he is describing a hand with good defence. Thats why south has to take a substantial part of the guilt, but north X is still terrible, because half of this hcp are in partners long suit and will probably never make a trick.
Leading ♦J isn't very smart either, because obviously east is short in ♥ and since north first X showed some ♦, opps might be short ther too. Leading trump to reduce the tricks of a crossruff would have been a better choice.
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