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Double Double after overcall

Poll: What do you think about this double? (30 member(s) have cast votes)

What do you think about this double?

  1. penalty (1 votes [3.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.33%

  2. invitational (to play 2Cx) (1 votes [3.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.33%

  3. take out (4 spades) (25 votes [83.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 83.33%

  4. other (3 votes [10.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.00%

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#1 User is offline   Miron 

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Posted 2006-February-24, 02:34

1 - 1 - 1NT - p
2 - x

What means the double?
Please try to explain why it shouldn't be any other choice.

Opps played polish club, but it doesn't matter here. You can take they play standard.
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#2 User is offline   Helmer 

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Posted 2006-February-24, 04:10

Always take out. Pard passed - thats why.

If it shows 4 card spade - not always.
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#3 User is offline   Gerben42 

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Posted 2006-February-24, 04:18

Take out, for example:

KQxx
AQJxx
Kxx
x

whereas 2 in this position would show more playing strength:

KQxx
AQJxxx
Ax
x

It can't be penalty, if you have you just pass and hope they don't go back to (yea dream on)
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do!
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#4 User is offline   Miron 

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Posted 2006-February-26, 07:05

OK, thanks for comments.

Now modification:
Assume, that
1 - x
is an normal take out
OR
5+ & 4, (9)11-15

What would this double mean?
1 - 1 - 1NT - p
2 - x
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#5 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2006-February-26, 20:22

takeout.
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#6 User is offline   Miron 

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Posted 2006-February-27, 02:31

Jlall, on Feb 27 2006, 03:22 AM, said:

takeout.

What hand it could be?
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#7 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2006-February-27, 09:48

AQxx AKxxx QJx x

AKx KQxxx Kxxx x

AQx Qxxxxx AKx x
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#8 User is online   awm 

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Posted 2006-February-27, 10:57

If you'd normally double with 5+ and 4, there are fewer reasons for doubling here to be takeout. Nonetheless, it seems better to have general agreements about the meaning of doubles rather than try to come up with a huge list of special cases, and so I'd still interpret this as takeout. Some typical hands:

KQx
KJxxxx
AQx
x

JTxx
AQJxxx
x
Ax

The first hand has extra values, but the heart suit is not so great. It seems reasonable to suggest playing in spades if partner has 5, or even four good spades and short hearts.

The second hand does have four spades, but I would much prefer to overcall 1 with the substantial disparity in suit lengths and quality. This has the advantage of being a good lead director for example.
Adam W. Meyerson
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#9 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2006-February-27, 11:35

With your added condition, I suppose an argument could be made for several different treaments. Without any particular discussion I don't see why it is not still for takeout. Something like extra values and a strong three card holding in spades. Often this is what it would turn out to be without the extra agreement, but I don't see why it changes (except you can be more confident that doubler doesn't hold four spades). I imagine partner will often bid hearts in response, and you will be in a strong 5-2 fit, but he can trot out something else if his hand warrants. I guess if he has a lot of clubs he can pass. I must be missing something, as this seems pretty straightforward to me.
Ken
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