[blackshoe]

Scoring: MP

---

The bidding so far: (P)-1♣-X-?

Basic system: Standard American (or 2/1; I don't think it makes a difference. If it does, please address that system too).

Pertinent agreements: In an uncontested auction, 3♣ would be preemptive, 2♣ would be a limit raise or better, 4+ ♣, no 4 card major. 2NT balanced invite, 3NT balanced 13+ (not sure this is a good agreement, or why it's on the card, but there it is). After the double, 2NT is a preemptive raise in ♣, 3♣ is invitational ("Flip Flop"). Redouble would show 10+ points and imply no fit. Our agreement as to 2♣ now is unclear. Many people seem to think inverted raises should be off over a double. I'm not so sure, and this hand shows why. How do you bid now?

[cherdano]

Yes there is a good case that inverted minors should be off (you often have a hand with 4-card support that wants to make an immediate single raise in competition) but of course you need a forcing raise. Either play 2N as inv+, or play 2N as either/or preempt/gameforce with 3♣=limit, or play 2♦ as an artificial raise, there are many options...

[Foxx]

Yucckh. Pardon my French, but this "Flip-Flop" sounds like a hideous agreement and this is the reason. With a 2NT limit+ raise available, we'd have the ability to move over partner's 3♣ retreat with a game-forcing hand. We have now lost that here.

At the table, rather than try to navigate through a hazy auction, I'd probably just blast to 5♣.

[mike777]

blackshoe, on Jun 4 2007, 08:02 PM, said:

Dealer: West Vul: Both Scoring: MP

♠ T3 ♥ KQT ♦ K3 ♣ AKJ754

The bidding so far: (P)-1♣-X-?

Basic system: Standard American (or 2/1; I don't think it makes a difference. If it does, please address that system too).

Pertinent agreements: In an uncontested auction, 3♣ would be preemptive, 2♣ would be a limit raise or better, 4+ ♣, no 4 card major. 2NT balanced invite, 3NT balanced 13+ (not sure this is a good agreement, or why it's on the card, but there it is). After the double, 2NT is a preemptive raise in ♣, 3♣ is invitational ("Flip Flop"). Redouble would show 10+ points and imply no fit. Our agreement as to 2♣ now is unclear. Many people seem to think inverted raises should be off over a double. I'm not so sure, and this hand shows why. How do you bid now?

First off if you are playing flip flop fine but also play crisscross still on over x.

That would mean 1c=x=2d=game force in clubs, unbalanced often.

If you forbid all of that with your post, then at least let me bid 4d rkc for clubs.

[kenrexford]

Pass, given the agreements. I plan to cuebid later.

[jdonn]

If you didn't play flip flop, which is a convention I do not like at all, you could just make 3♣ weak and 2NT limit raise or better, which covers everything. If you want to play 2♣ as limit raise or better then it seems like you are wasting the 3♣ bid, as well as screwing all the hands that just wanted to raise to 2♣.

[pclayton]

I think you are stuck with a redouble, which may work fine since you'll get some useful information.

[foo]

blackshoe, on Jun 4 2007, 08:02 PM, said:

West,Both,MP
♠T3♥KQT♦K3♣AKJ754

The bidding so far: (P)-1♣-X-?

Basic system: Standard American (or 2/1; I don't think it makes a difference. If it does, please address that system too).

Pertinent agreements:
In an uncontested auction, 3♣ would be preemptive, 2♣ would be a limit raise or better, 4+ ♣, no 4 card major. 2N balanced invite, 3N balanced 13+ (not sure this is a good agreement, or why it's on the card, but there it is).

After the double, 2N is a preemptive raise in ♣, 3♣ is invitational ("Flip Flop"). Redouble would show 10+ points and imply no fit. Our agreement as to 2♣ now is unclear. Many people seem to think inverted raises should be off over a double. I'm not so sure, and this hand shows why. How do you bid now?

I'll assume Western Cue Bids = "Pard, bid 3N with a stop in this suit" are on this card.

I want the T/O X on lead, preferably into GOP's S guard(s)

(p)-1C-(X)-3S! Western Cue by me.

Regardless of Opener's rebid, I then start a slam probe...


Much better would be for Us to have agreements as to what 2M by Responder means here. If 2S means "please bid 2N or 3N with a S stop according to your values.", I'd be ecstatic...

[Free]

3♠ or 3NT, depends on how good your LHO is in finding the right lead

[Fluffy]

1♥

[Gerben42]

Redouble. Nothing else is close except change of system.

[Fluffy]

Gerben42, on Jun 5 2007, 10:39 AM, said:

Redouble. Nothing else is close except change of system.

you mean no fit is close to 6 card support?

[gwnn]

IF we don't play 2NT as fit showing unlimited AND I think I'm smarter than 5♣, 1♠ is clearly the winning bid.

[blackshoe]

Western Cuebids is not on our card (yes, it should be). We don't play criss-cross in uncontested auctions (we had it on the card for a while, but before it came up partner asked to remove it because she was afraid she'd forget it) so "criss-cross stll on" is not a possibility.

It's much as I figured, we need to change the system. One possiblity I'm considering is to make 2NT two way - either a preemptive raise, or GF. After all, if responder has a preemptive raise, we're not likely to do well in 2NT, so the bid is effectively forcing to 3 of the minor anyway. Alternatively, we could remove the "implies no fit" restriction on redouble.

The purpose of flip-flop, or at least the reason we are playing it, is to right side 3NT when responder is invitational. Not sure why those who dislike it do so.

[blackshoe]

Not sure how partner would take a psyche from me - this is an ACBL club, and psyches are rare. On top of that many people don't like 'em. I'm not one of those, but I don't know how partner feels aboout it.

I don't have time to reconstruct the other three hands now, and don't have the hand record handy, but the hand makes either 5 ♣ or 5 NT. Slam is not on (two aces missing, as I recall). I do know that the doubler had classic double shape (stiff ♣ Q) and his partner had a balanced Yarborough.

[jtfanclub]

Fluffy, on Jun 5 2007, 09:33 AM, said:

Gerben42, on Jun 5 2007, 10:39 AM, said:

Redouble. Nothing else is close except change of system.

you mean no fit is close to 6 card support?

Just curious...does anybody else use XX followed by the impossible positive to show a game force with support?

1♣-X-XX-P
1grape-P-2♣

This allows me to force game a level and a bit lower than 2NT does.

[mikeh]

mike777, on Jun 4 2007, 09:07 PM, said:

blackshoe, on Jun 4 2007, 08:02 PM, said:

<!-- ONEHAND begin --><table border='1'> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td> Dealer: </td> <td> West </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Vul: </td> <td> Both </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Scoring: </td> <td> MP </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table> <tr> <th> <span class='spades'> ♠ </span> </th> <td> T3 </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='hearts'> ♥ </span> </th> <td> KQT </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='diamonds'> ♦ </span> </th> <td> K3 </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='clubs'> ♣ </span> </th> <td> AKJ754 </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td>  </td> </tr> </table><!-- ONEHAND end -->

The bidding so far: (P)-1♣-X-?

Basic system: Standard American (or 2/1; I don't think it makes a difference. If it does, please address that system too).

Pertinent agreements: In an uncontested auction, 3♣ would be preemptive, 2♣ would be a limit raise or better, 4+ ♣, no 4 card major. 2NT balanced invite, 3NT balanced 13+ (not sure this is a good agreement, or why it's on the card, but there it is). After the double, 2NT is a preemptive raise in ♣, 3♣ is invitational ("Flip Flop"). Redouble would show 10+ points and imply no fit. Our agreement as to 2♣ now is unclear. Many people seem to think inverted raises should be off over a double. I'm not so sure, and this hand shows why. How do you bid now?

First off if you are playing flip flop fine but also play crisscross still on over x.

That would mean 1c=x=2d=game force in clubs, unbalanced often.

If you forbid all of that with your post, then at least let me bid 4d rkc for clubs.

keycard with xx in ♠S?? What a wonderful idea: partner shows 2 keycards with the ♣ Queen and we confidently bid........... ooops, I guess we have no idea, at all, what to bid.................isn't random keycard a wonderful device? Are we so bankrupt of bidding ideas that we have to perpetrate this kind of bid?

[SoTired]

This is silly. Your system does not have a forcing minor raise over a double. So you ask, "How do I show a forcing minor raise over the double?"

Simple. You can't. Your system does not allow it. So you bid 5C (or 6C) now. Then later, you say to your partner, "We need to change our system and add a bid to show a forcing minor raise over a dbl."

There are two things you don't leave home without: A way to show a forcing major raise and a way to show a forcing minor raise in all common auctions.

[Foxx]

blackshoe, on Jun 5 2007, 01:24 PM, said:

Western Cuebids is not on our card (yes, it should be).

Oh, Western Cuebids can be on your card, indeed they're played by more than half the people I know, but I've never seen it suggested that they would apply here.

What would you do in the same situation but with ♠x ♥KQ10 ♦K10x ♣AKJxxx? That splinter raise is starting to look pretty good.

[foo]

The more I think on this hand, the more I think 2M should be cue bids asking for stops in the suit and the strength range of opener.

♠T3♥KQT♦K3♣AKJ754

1C-(X)-2S!;2N/3N and we start cuebidding.

1C-(X)-2S!;3suit and Responder is warned.