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What's your call?
minors
#1
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Posted 2007-July-16, 16:16
What's your call?
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.
- hrothgar
- hrothgar
#2
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Posted 2007-July-16, 16:43
4NT. Showing both minors with longer clubs.
I am not defending 4S on this hand.
I am not defending 4S on this hand.
#3
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Posted 2007-July-16, 16:47
I'd pass.
#5
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Posted 2007-July-16, 17:05
I like pass here. Two problem with bidding:
(1) Partner may take us for a better hand if we bid. There are many hands where 5m makes or is a good sacrifice, but too often partner is going to raise us to six. Obviously partner has to give us some leeway to bid with shape in this auction, especially at these colors, but this dead minimum opener without even a spade void seems like too much.
(2) The aces in this hand provide a good bit of defense. With a hand that really offers no tricks against 4♠ it is much more tempting to bid -- say something like x xx KQJx KQJTxx where your suits are much better but you don't have aces. The point is that on the actual hand you don't need much from partner to set 4♠, whereas you need a lot to make 5m.
(1) Partner may take us for a better hand if we bid. There are many hands where 5m makes or is a good sacrifice, but too often partner is going to raise us to six. Obviously partner has to give us some leeway to bid with shape in this auction, especially at these colors, but this dead minimum opener without even a spade void seems like too much.
(2) The aces in this hand provide a good bit of defense. With a hand that really offers no tricks against 4♠ it is much more tempting to bid -- say something like x xx KQJx KQJTxx where your suits are much better but you don't have aces. The point is that on the actual hand you don't need much from partner to set 4♠, whereas you need a lot to make 5m.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
#6
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Posted 2007-July-16, 17:38
Jlall, on Jul 16 2007, 05:52 PM, said:
pass, 4N over another X, the usual.
Is this a pass and pull (showing a better hand) situation, or does that not apply because our pass is not forcing?
#7 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2007-July-16, 18:57
TimG, on Jul 16 2007, 06:38 PM, said:
Jlall, on Jul 16 2007, 05:52 PM, said:
pass, 4N over another X, the usual.
Is this a pass and pull (showing a better hand) situation, or does that not apply because our pass is not forcing?
right, pass and pull as a slam try cannot apply if pass isn't forcing (and it clearly isn't here).
#8
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Posted 2007-July-16, 19:26
I like pass here more than 4nt; I do not want to hang pard for doubling on five hearts with quacky values.
"Champions aren't made in gyms, champions are made from something they have deep inside them - a desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last-minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill. " - M. Ali
#9
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Posted 2007-July-16, 20:29
keylime, on Jul 16 2007, 08:26 PM, said:
I like pass here more than 4nt; I do not want to hang pard for doubling on five hearts with quacky values.
I also don't want to be hung by PD when he can take 2 tricks on defence (or possibly 3 and is whacking 4♠) combined with my 2 aces when we can't make 5m.
Pass.. neilkaz ..
#10
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Posted 2007-July-16, 23:33
The pass seems really obvious. Is this here because partner has xx Axxx Kxxxxx x?
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
#11
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Posted 2007-July-16, 23:50
I can see the case for pass but I'm sure I would bid 4N at the table.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
#12
- Csaba the Hutt
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Posted 2007-July-17, 00:55
Must pass... arrrrr.... this is not the time to flaunt your silly agreements.... oh no... who put that 4NT card on the table?
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
George Carlin
George Carlin
#13
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Posted 2007-July-17, 02:19
Obvious pass.
Why on earth should I bid anything now?
- 4♠ might go down, when we can't make anything higher.
- 5m might go down a lot.
- Partner is still there.
If partner makes a card-showing double, I'll bid 4NT. We've got a good chance of either making or finding a good save.
If partner passes, fine. We might still set them.
Why on earth should I bid anything now?
- 4♠ might go down, when we can't make anything higher.
- 5m might go down a lot.
- Partner is still there.
If partner makes a card-showing double, I'll bid 4NT. We've got a good chance of either making or finding a good save.
If partner passes, fine. We might still set them.
Kind regards,
Harald
Harald
#14
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Posted 2007-July-17, 02:48
Pass
For me partner has shown some values and hearts, so my chances at this point are better in defence.
If partner doubles again is that takeout or good defensive values? At the vulnerability I think I'll pass and take the chance I'm missing a slam.
For me partner has shown some values and hearts, so my chances at this point are better in defence.
If partner doubles again is that takeout or good defensive values? At the vulnerability I think I'll pass and take the chance I'm missing a slam.
#15
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Posted 2007-July-17, 11:47
Keep in mind that this is IMPs.
I would rather bid 4NT and find that both 4S and 5 of our minor go off one trick than pass and find out that both 4S and 5 of our minor make. And I am wrong to bid only if both 4S and 5 of our minor do not make. If either makes, it is right to bid (I am assuming that neither 4S nor 5 of our minor go down much).
From years of experience, I say bid one more at IMPs in a competitive auction with distributional hands.
More matches have been lost by defending at both tables on this type of hand than by declaring.
I would rather bid 4NT and find that both 4S and 5 of our minor go off one trick than pass and find out that both 4S and 5 of our minor make. And I am wrong to bid only if both 4S and 5 of our minor do not make. If either makes, it is right to bid (I am assuming that neither 4S nor 5 of our minor go down much).
From years of experience, I say bid one more at IMPs in a competitive auction with distributional hands.
More matches have been lost by defending at both tables on this type of hand than by declaring.
#16
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Posted 2007-July-17, 12:03
Bidding here is madness.
Pass and pull to 4N.
Pass and pull to 4N.
"Phil" on BBO
#17
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Posted 2007-July-17, 12:48
I agree that bidding 4N immediately is insane.
I also agree that we should pull partner's hoped-for double, but I would have liked to see more discussion of why we shouldn't be trying to collect 500 against our 400 or 200 against our-50, etc.
When we hold 2 Aces, even with shape, we surely expect to beat them most of the time, and there will be hands on which we can't quite make 11 tricks: QJx KQxx Kxxx xx..... would we pass 4♠ with that hand, as partner? Heck, make it Kx KQJx Kxxx xxx
It may be that this kind of hand is inconsistent with the opps' bidding.
Too bad this is (nearly) impossible to simulate, due to issues re opps' hands and partner's calls on various hand types.
I also agree that we should pull partner's hoped-for double, but I would have liked to see more discussion of why we shouldn't be trying to collect 500 against our 400 or 200 against our-50, etc.
When we hold 2 Aces, even with shape, we surely expect to beat them most of the time, and there will be hands on which we can't quite make 11 tricks: QJx KQxx Kxxx xx..... would we pass 4♠ with that hand, as partner? Heck, make it Kx KQJx Kxxx xxx
It may be that this kind of hand is inconsistent with the opps' bidding.
Too bad this is (nearly) impossible to simulate, due to issues re opps' hands and partner's calls on various hand types.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
#18 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2007-July-17, 18:10
Mike, I actually pass way more than most people in these auctions (over the second X), but I think it looks right to bid. I know you know as well as I do when the red/white opps go to 4S they will likely have a lot of shape and I don't think a double game swing would be out of the question even with our aces if there is some distribution out. I also think 400 instead of 200 is quite likely which is (almost) as big of a swing as 200 into -50.
#19
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Posted 2007-July-18, 04:32
When I made my choice to pass I was considering two of the relevant hand shapes for partner:
3433
2452
Would it be sensible for partner to bid 4NT on the second type rather than double?
Arguably if he can't support clubs 4NT describes his hand.
3433
2452
Would it be sensible for partner to bid 4NT on the second type rather than double?
Arguably if he can't support clubs 4NT describes his hand.
#20 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2007-July-18, 04:51
Halo, on Jul 18 2007, 05:32 AM, said:
When I made my choice to pass I was considering two of the relevant hand shapes for partner:
3433
2452
Would it be sensible for partner to bid 4NT on the second type rather than double?
Arguably if he can't support clubs 4NT describes his hand.
3433
2452
Would it be sensible for partner to bid 4NT on the second type rather than double?
Arguably if he can't support clubs 4NT describes his hand.
nope.
1C - (1S) - Dbl - 4S
??