[Winstonm]

Quote

WASHINGTON — Iran is engaging in a proxy war with the United States in Iraq,

The remarks by the ambassador, Ryan C. Crocker, reflected the sharper criticism of Iran by President Bush and his top deputies over the past week, as administration officials have sought to trace many of their troubles in Iraq to Iran.

We are hearing claims of Iran being more dangerous now than al-Qaeda, that Iran is fighting a proxy war via Iraq, and that Iran is supplying weapons and "special forces" in Iraq.

Are these sharp increases in anti-Iranian rhetoric the rumblings before more war or simply a way to deflect criticism from failing Iraq policies?

[blackshoe]

Clearly the Bush Administration is lying to the American Peepul, and Iran is minding their own business and not doing anything at all in, to, or about Iraq.

[hrothgar]

blackshoe, on Apr 12 2008, 06:46 PM, said:

Clearly the Bush Administration is lying to the American Peepul, and Iran is minding their own business and not doing anything at all in, to, or about Iraq.

Grow up Ed...

Winston didn't claim anything of the kind. Its disingenuous to suggest that he did.

Its perfectly apparent that the Iran government has an active interest in whats taking place in Iran. This doesn't mean bombing Iran is an appropriate course of action.

As an analogy, many folks - myself included - felt that the Baathist regime in Iraq was odious. At the same time, we argued that invading was absolutely idiotic...

[kenberg]

During the 80s the Iranians and the Iraqis killed each other while we watched.
For the past five years Iraqis and Americans killed each other while Iran watched.
I suppose the Iraqis now feel it is their turn to do the watching.

I guess we plan to accommodate them. Fair is fair.

[Winstonm]

For me it is getting to be a little like "Chicken Little" with the "sky is falling" claim.

First we had WMD and the urgency to invade Iraq. Then we had al-Qaeda in Iraq.
Now the big threat is Iran.

Maybe it's just the cynic in me, but this latest rhetoric target feels to me more like making the claims fit the desires - or at minimum creating a diversion from looking too closely at Iraq policy.

[luke warm]

hrothgar, on Apr 12 2008, 11:07 AM, said:

blackshoe, on Apr 12 2008, 06:46 PM, said:

Clearly the Bush Administration is lying to the American Peepul, and Iran is minding their own business and not doing anything at all in, to, or about Iraq.

Grow up Ed...

Winston didn't claim anything of the kind. Its disingenuous to suggest that he did.

grow up richard... winston does believe the bush administration is lying to the american people and has been doing so all along... it's disingenuous to say otherwise, especially when he's used those exact words

Quote

Its perfectly apparent that the Iran government has an active interest in whats taking place in Iran. This doesn't mean bombing Iran is an appropriate course of action.

well that's obviously true, as is its opposite

[Winstonm]

Quote

winston does believe the bush administration is lying to the american people

You only know what you think I believe - so I wouldn't go around proclaiming your misrepresentations as "gospel".

[matmat]

Winstonm, on Apr 12 2008, 07:44 PM, said:

You only know what you think I believe - so I wouldn't go around proclaiming your misrepresentations as "gospel".

hehe

i'm having a princess bride moment.

[jdonn]

matmat, on Apr 12 2008, 08:02 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Apr 12 2008, 07:44 PM, said:

You only know what you think I believe - so I wouldn't go around proclaiming your misrepresentations as "gospel".

hehe

i'm having a princess bride moment.

Never mess with a Sicilian when death is on the line! Muahahahaha! Muahahahaha! Muahaha - ..........

plop

[Echognome]

jdonn, on Apr 12 2008, 05:16 PM, said:

Never mess with a Sicilian when death is on the line! Muahahahaha! Muahahahaha! Muahaha - ..........

plop

Plot reviews told by Donn...

And he says "Hey. Don't mess with a Sicilian dude. Not when death is on the line."

date=, on -The.html, said:

VIZZINI
             You fell victim to one of the
             classic blunders. The most famous
             is "Never get involved in a land
             war in Asia." But only slightly
             less well known is this: "Never
             go in against a Sicilian when
             death is on the line."

He laughs and roars and cackles and whoops and is in all
ways quite cheery until he falls over dead.

Edit: Yes. Yes. I know. Pretty nitpicky.

[Winstonm]

Quote

(Lukewarm) winston does believe

Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means

[matmat]

Winstonm, on Apr 12 2008, 08:45 PM, said:

Quote

(Lukewarm) winston does believe

Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means

yeah... that's the bell that i heard

[hrothgar]

luke warm, on Apr 13 2008, 03:19 AM, said:

hrothgar, on Apr 12 2008, 11:07 AM, said:

blackshoe, on Apr 12 2008, 06:46 PM, said:

Clearly the Bush Administration is lying to the American Peepul, and Iran is minding their own business and not doing anything at all in, to, or about Iraq.

Grow up Ed...

Winston didn't claim anything of the kind. Its disingenuous to suggest that he did.

grow up richard... winston does believe the bush administration is lying to the american people and has been doing so all along... it's disingenuous to say otherwise, especially when he's used those exact words

Quote

Its perfectly apparent that the Iran government has an active interest in whats taking place in Iran. This doesn't mean bombing Iran is an appropriate course of action.

well that's obviously true, as is its opposite

Read what I wrote Jimmy...

My issue with Ed's post is the way that he is framing Winston's position about Iran.

Winston is claiming that the Bush administration is lying to the American people and launching a propaganda war trying to build up support for military action against Iran.

For what its worth, I agree with Winston on this point. I think that elements of the Bush administration are vastly over-inflating the threat place by Iran. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they're stupid enough to start bombing Iran before they leave office.

Quote

Iraq is the convergence point for two of the greatest threats to America in this new century -- al Qaeda and Iran.

What a load of crap...

This doesn't mean that the Iranian regime is all sweetness and light. I don't know anyone who believes this. Winston certainly didn't suggest it.

If you take a look at Ed's original post, he is implying that Winston said that the Iranian regime is harmless. What were the exact words? Oh yes...

Quote

Iran is minding their own business and not doing anything at all in, to, or about Iraq

Thats what I was (fairly specifically) objecting to

[Winstonm]

Quote

Winston is claiming that the Bush administration is lying to the American people and launching a propaganda war trying to build up support for military action against Iran.

I believe the better way to state this is that the Bush administration has once again altered its reasoning and targeting - where once the purpose was to stop a rogue band of terrorists and their sponsors, al Qaeda, now the focus is on incriminating a neighboring country with no mention of al-Qaeda association or terrorism. The new targets are Iranian "special groups" and Iranian sponsorship of rebel militias.

Is the change of emphasis the beginning of justification for bombing Iran or simply reason for prolonging the Iraq intervention?

Full disclosure: I do not believe Iran is blameless. I do not believe Iran is without faults.

[luke warm]

Winstonm, on Apr 12 2008, 07:44 PM, said:

Quote

winston does believe the bush administration is lying to the american people

You only know what you think I believe - so I wouldn't go around proclaiming your misrepresentations as "gospel".

ok then, you tell me... do you, without absolute proof of the matter, have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability that the bush administration is lying to the american people and has been doing so all along?

Winstonm, on Apr 12 2008, 08:45 PM, said:

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means

maybe not... your answer to the above will help

[Winstonm]

Quote

ok then, you tell me... do you, without absolute proof of the matter, have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability that the bush administration is lying to the american people and has been doing so all along?

There is a circumstantial thread that runs through this administration's actions.
I can only recognize the actions and speculate on the reasons.

The labeling, I will leave to you.

[luke warm]

Winstonm, on Apr 13 2008, 08:50 AM, said:

Quote

ok then, you tell me... do you, without absolute proof of the matter, have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability that the bush administration is lying to the american people and has been doing so all along?

There is a circumstantial thread that runs through this administration's actions.
I only can recognize the actions and speculate on the reasons.

The labeling, I will leave to you.

i wasn't labeling anything, i was just asking a question... i can't force you to answer it, and i wouldn't want to force an answer, but i was hoping for one

richard said (which is pretty much what i said):

hrothgar, on Apr 13 2008, 05:34 AM, said:

Winston is claiming that the Bush administration is lying to the American people and launching a propaganda war trying to build up support for military action against Iran. 

For what its worth, I agree with Winston on this point.  I think that elements of the Bush administration are vastly over-inflating the threat place by Iran.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if they're stupid enough to start bombing Iran before they leave office.

so that's at least two of us who are under the impression that you think bush is or has been all along lying to us... maybe we're both wrong - to find out if we are is the reason for my question

[hrothgar]

luke warm, on Apr 13 2008, 04:35 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Apr 12 2008, 07:44 PM, said:

Quote

winston does believe the bush administration is lying to the american people

You only know what you think I believe - so I wouldn't go around proclaiming your misrepresentations as "gospel".

ok then, you tell me... do you, without absolute proof of the matter, have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability that the bush administration is lying to the american people and has been doing so all along?

In short, yes....

I am quite confident that the senior elements of the Bush administration lied in order to launch a military attack against Iraq.

Moreover, the administration launched a massive propaganda effort to convince the American people that Iraq was directly involve in the 911 attacks.

Last, but not least, the administration actively discouraged any kind of objective debate on this subject. Senior decision makers within the Bush administration were arguing in favor of overthrowing Saddam Hussein back in the late 90s. They seized on 911 as an opportunity to achieve this goal.

[luke warm]

hrothgar, on Apr 13 2008, 09:34 AM, said:

luke warm, on Apr 13 2008, 04:35 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Apr 12 2008, 07:44 PM, said:

Quote

winston does believe the bush administration is lying to the american people

You only know what you think I believe - so I wouldn't go around proclaiming your misrepresentations as "gospel".

ok then, you tell me... do you, without absolute proof of the matter, have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability that the bush administration is lying to the american people and has been doing so all along?

In short, yes....

I am quite confident that the senior elements of the Bush administration lied in order to launch a military attack against Iraq.

Moreover, the administration launched a massive propaganda effort to convince the American people that Iraq was directly involve in the 911 attacks.

Last, but not least, the administration actively discouraged any kind of objective debate on this subject. Senior decision makers within the Bush administration were arguing in favor of overthrowing Saddam Hussein back in the late 90s. They seized on 911 as an opportunity to achieve this goal.

i happen to agree with you... maybe originally he really *was* convinced there were WMD there, maybe he wasn't... but i think it's obvious that since then all he's done is defend the invasion, using whatever justification seems handy at the time

[Winstonm]

If I had Richard's IQ (which is surely 160+), I might be as confident as he in my declarations. But I don't and am not. Hence, my reluctance to claim fact or label.

That said, the actions suggest to me an orchestrated presentation of agenda rather than an attempt to present undiluted facts.

Quote

Last, but not least, the administration actively discouraged any kind of objective debate on this subject.

This, I believe, is the crux of the matter. Regardless of subject matter, from scientific inquiry to weapons of mass destruction, this administration has worked to actively surpress counter viewpoints and arguments - which leaves no choice but to accept their word as the undebatable truth.

I am not willing to do that.