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partner surprises you

#1 User is offline   Apollo81 

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Posted 2008-June-13, 09:34

♠KT73
♥A5
♦AKT853
♣T

unfav, MPs

p-(2♥)-X-(p)
2♠-(p)-?
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#2 User is offline   Sambolino 

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Posted 2008-June-13, 09:37

3s is a fair bid i think
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#3 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2008-June-13, 10:00

4♠. We don't need much to make it.
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#4 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2008-June-13, 10:25

Tough.

On the one hand, partner could have something like ♠AQxx ♥xxx ♦Qxx ♣xxx, where 6♠ is a good contract.

On the other hand, partner could have some garbage like ♠Jxx ♥xxxx ♦xxx ♣xxx, where 2♠ is in jeopardy.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

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#5 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2008-June-13, 10:30

This is a good hand for the natural game try of 4♠.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
      George Carlin
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#6 User is offline   andy_h 

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Posted 2008-June-13, 11:13

3S middle of the road for me
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#7 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-June-13, 11:48

I'd try 4. We have the type of hand where if we get good splits we probably will make 4, and if we don't we will probably go down in 3 (opposite partner's marginal passes of 3).
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#8 User is offline   effervesce 

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Posted 2008-June-13, 23:48

3♠ is enough for me.
Ming

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#9 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2008-June-15, 11:03

Apollo81, on Jun 13 2008, 10:34 AM, said:

unfav, MPs ♠ KT73 ♥ A5 ♦ AKT853 ♣ T
p-(2♥)-X-(p)
2♠-(p)-?

IMO 3♥ = 10, 4♠ = 8, 3♠ = 6, 4♦ = 4.
It depends on your agreements if any. For example is 3♦ forcing? 4♣ / 4♦ a splinter / fit jump?
Guthrie.tech
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#10 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-June-15, 11:12

I guess 4♠ and hope it's not too much. I don't see any point whatsoever in 3♥, unless you are saying you're about to try for 3NT from partner's side then what does it get you?
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#11 User is offline   Apollo81 

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Posted 2008-June-15, 11:56

I bid 4♠, which got doubled and went down 2 on a bad spade split.
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#12 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-June-15, 12:08

nige1, on Jun 15 2008, 12:03 PM, said:

IMO 3♥ = 10, 4♠ = 8, 3♠ = 6, 4♦ = 4.
It depends on your agreements if any. For example is 3♦ forcing? 4♣ / 4♦ a splinter / fit jump?

Why does 3♥ get the top score? Does it show 4-card support? I don't think so. Nobody I know plays that 3♦ in this auction is forcing so it isn't relevant. And why would you bid 4♦, whatever it means, in the best case you end up in 4♠ anyway and the opponents will know how to defend.

I would generally rather read the arguments for your choice than reading how many points you give your third and fourth choice. Who cares?
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

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#13 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2008-June-15, 12:57

Apollo81, on Jun 15 2008, 09:56 AM, said:

I bid 4♠, which got doubled and went down 2 on a bad spade split.

What was pard's hand?
"Phil" on BBO
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#14 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2008-June-15, 13:22

han, on Jun 15 2008, 01:08 PM, said:

nige1, on Jun 15 2008, 12:03 PM, said:

IMO 3♥ = 10, 4♠ = 8, 3♠ = 6, 4♦ = 4.
It depends on your agreements if any. For example is 3♦ forcing? 4♣ / 4♦ a splinter / fit jump?

Why does 3♥ get the top score? Does it show 4-card support? I don't think so. Nobody I know plays that 3♦ in this auction is forcing so it isn't relevant. And why would you bid 4♦, whatever it means, in the best case you end up in 4♠ anyway and the opponents will know how to defend.

I would generally rather read the arguments for your choice than reading how many points you give your third and fourth choice. Who cares?

My replies reflect the kind of answer I like when I post a problem. Usually I know that the option I chose was less than ideal. I want to know is how close my choice was to what others consider to be better choices. Marking the various options provides the most useful feedback.

I divulge more "reasoning" than most; but here (as explained) your choice depends on your partnership agreements. FWIW mine are
  • Direct raises like 3♠ and 4♠: unconstructive.
  • Cue-bid: unassuming, usually a good hand with 4 card support or asking for a stop. If partner rebids 3♠, you can pass (although you might still bid 4♠ here).
  • NT bids 19+HCP.
  • New suit virtually forcing.
  • Jumps show 3+support and a good 6+suit.
But these are only partnership agreements; manifestly not to everybody's taste; so a tedious explanation seemed inappropriate :rolleyes:
Guthrie.tech
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#15 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-June-15, 13:39

I still don't see for the life of me what 3♥ gains over raising directly??
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#16 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2008-June-15, 16:10

jdonn, on Jun 15 2008, 02:39 PM, said:

I still don't see for the life of me what 3♥ gains over raising directly??
Et tu Josh :D
IMO 3♥
  • Helps partner to judge a possibly competitive auction by showing a defensive/offensive hand.
  • Gives partner the chance to co-operate in slam exploration, below game If he has much to spare for his 2♠ bid,
  • (At the other extreme) Allows you to subside in 3♠, if you judge your hand worth only 3♠ (as others do).
  • Distinguishes
    ♠ Pre-empts like ♠ QJxxx ♥ - ♦ KQJx ♣ KQJx or
    ♠ KJTxx ♥ - ♦ QJTxx ♣ KQx from
    ♠ Powerouses like KTxx ♥ Ax ♦ AKTxxx ♣ x or even
    ♠ Axxx ♥ x ♦ AKxx ♣ AKxx

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#17 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-June-15, 17:19

Hmm ok, you keep looking for slam with your 14 if you want opposite partner's weakest bid, and hopefully you will be able to distinguish the hand(s?) that makes slam from the vast majority that don't. But do you really think

p (2♥) X (P)
2♠ (P) ??

is a "possibly competitive auction"? I guess if you give them a 3♥ bid to double it gets more competitive...
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#18 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2008-June-15, 19:00

jdonn, on Jun 15 2008, 06:19 PM, said:

Hmm ok, you keep looking for slam with your 14 if you want opposite partner's weakest bid, and hopefully you will be able to distinguish the hand(s?) that makes slam from the vast majority that don't. But do you really think

p (2♥) X (P)
2♠ (P) ??

is a "possibly competitive auction"? I guess if you give them a 3♥ bid to double it gets more competitive...
To some extent it is a matter of judgement, and we can agree to differ :D
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#19 User is offline   xcurt 

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Posted 2008-June-15, 20:53

Anyone slamming with this should go read this thread. Over there in almost the identical auction the other hand has Q222, Txx, Q, AT9xx and people are split between 2S and 3S. I'd almost say that the linked thread contains the facing hand for this, but the scoring is different and there advancer is an unpassed hand. That facing hand makes me think that 3S is plenty here; if partner remotely close to good as that hand he will accept and we don't have much play facing less.
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#20 User is offline   Apollo81 

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Posted 2008-June-16, 08:53

pclayton, on Jun 15 2008, 02:57 PM, said:

Apollo81, on Jun 15 2008, 09:56 AM, said:

I bid 4♠, which got doubled and went down 2 on a bad spade split.

What was pard's hand?

xxxx KJxx Jx xxx
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