[bluejak]

Sorry, typing too fast. My "It is not" referred to dburn's comment, not yours. Mea culpa.

[campboy]

gnasher, on Apr 19 2010, 03:12 PM, said:

campboy, on Apr 19 2010, 02:22 PM, said:

Otoh, I will always ask about an alerted opening bid unless I believe I know what opponents play. However, I accept that a TD is unlikely to rule on that basis (at least in England).

You mean that you think the TD would rule on the assumption that you don't do what you say you do? Why would he do that?

In the EBU, I don't think he has much choice. OB3E1 states categorically that "if a player asks a question and the passes, he has shown an interest in taking some other action had the player received a different answer." The TD may be of the personal opinion that in my case this is not true, but it is still a regulation.

[gnasher]

campboy, on Apr 19 2010, 04:15 PM, said:

In the EBU, I don't think he has much choice. OB3E1 states categorically that "if a player asks a question and the passes, he has shown an interest in taking some other action had the player received a different answer." The TD may be of the personal opinion that in my case this is not true, but it is still a regulation.

Are you using an EBU computer, and therefore looking at an out-of-date copy of the Orange Book? So far as I can tell, this is the current version of OB3E1:

Orange Book said:

A player has the right to ask questions at his turn, but should be aware that exercising this right has consequences. If a player shows unusual interest in one or more calls of the auction, then this is unauthorised information to partner. Partner must carefully avoid taking advantage, which may constrain the actions partner is permitted to take during the remainder of the auction or when on lead during the play. (Law 16B, 73C). Asking about a call of 3NT or below which has not been alerted may cause more problems than asking about an alerted call, as may asking repeated or leading questions. Asking about alerted calls in a (potentially) competitive auction is less likely to have adverse consequences, although it is not risk free.
If, therefore, at a player’s turn to call, he does not need to have a call explained, it may be in his interests to defer all questions until either he is about to make the opening lead or his partner’s lead is face-down on the table.

[Pict]

So finally we see a sensible statement about asking questions in general.

And in this instance, the player has good reason generally (the alert) and a specific reason in not having examined the oppos card.

The TD seems to have dealt with this. Are there other factors we have not been made aware of? Did we as 6... says have to be there. Was the AC 'there'.

[gnasher]

Pict, on Apr 19 2010, 08:11 PM, said:

So finally we see a sensible statement about asking questions in general.

I don't know about "finally". Most of what I quoted is just a paraphrasing of Laws which have existed in much the same form since 1997 or earlier.

And I don't know about "sensible" either. The best way to avoid UI problems is to be consistent about how you behave in a given situation. That applies to asking questions just as much as it does to tempo.

Quote

And in this instance, the player has good reason generally (the alert) and a specific reason in not having examined the oppos card.

What on earth does that have to do with anything? Regardless of whether West had good reason for his question, if he sometimes asks and sometimes doesn't, depending partly upon the contents of his hand, the question conveys UI.

West isn't being penalised for asking a question. In fact, West isn't being penalised for anything. East is being penalised for making an illegal call.

[campboy]

gnasher, on Apr 19 2010, 06:04 PM, said:

Are you using an EBU computer, and therefore looking at an out-of-date copy of the Orange Book?

I was looking in my paper copy. Glad to see this has been changed.

[Pict]

Largely the OP and a large part of the posts talk about West, including your 'self serving' statements about always asking and therfore being immune from criticism.

So suddenly to turn on East as the culprit is interesting. He knows partner has 11 points - he is Bluejak?

Does Gnasher cave in to 5-9 two-suiters?

Edit: this refers to Gnashers lengthy quote with comments before CampBoy's latest offer.

[peachy]

gnasher quoted a paragraph from the Orange book.
It starts by saying: (copied from that paragraph)

If a player shows unusual interest in one or more calls of the auction
[emphasis is mine]


My problem is: When an opening bid is alerted, and the player next in turn asks what the bid means, is this considered *unusual interest* in EBU? I would consider it usual interest to inquire about an alerted call. Had the call been not alerted, then it would be "unusual" in most cases.

[gnasher]

peachy, on Apr 20 2010, 10:40 PM, said:

My problem is:  When an opening bid is alerted, and the player next in turn asks what the bid means, is this considered *unusual interest* in EBU?  I would consider it usual interest to inquire about an alerted call.  Had the call been not alerted, then it would be "unusual" in most cases.

If you always ask, there is nothing "unusual" about your interest. If you usually don't ask but sometimes do, your interest is "unusual". That's not a question of interpretation or regulation - it's just common sense and English.

[peachy]

gnasher, on Apr 21 2010, 07:44 AM, said:

peachy, on Apr 20 2010, 10:40 PM, said:

My problem is:  When an opening bid is alerted, and the player next in turn asks what the bid means, is this considered *unusual interest* in EBU?  I would consider it usual interest to inquire about an alerted call.   Had the call been not alerted, then it would be "unusual" in most cases.

If you always ask, there is nothing "unusual" about your interest. If you usually don't ask but sometimes do, your interest is "unusual". That's not a question of interpretation or regulation - it's just common sense and English.

I believe you know how this regulation is interpreted in England. I did not know.

I will try to adjust my understanding to get it through my head that "unusual" in EBU means "unusual" for the player in question instead of "unusual" in general. Without your clarifying what it means, I understood from just reading the sentence that *unusual interest" would be something like many questions, surprised or quizzical looks, tones of voice or other such extras that would make the level of interest *not usual*. Asking in itself IMO cannot be unusual, but as said, my opinion does not count.

Never thought my common sense would be in question...but perhaps I need to revisit that one

[gnasher]

peachy, on Apr 21 2010, 06:25 PM, said:

I believe you know how this regulation is interpreted in England.

Actually I only know how I think it should be interpreted in England.

[bluejak]

It is not just a question of how this player does something, but the general approach. Alerted bids are asked about much more in NABCs than in England, especially under earlier alerting regulations. Maybe it is the fault of those regulations, maybe anything, but whatever the reason it is perfectly normal for players not to ask about alerted calls. A lot of posts especially form North America over the years have assumed that players will normally ask about alerted calls. Well, here they don't.

[blackshoe]

The last item in the introduction to the current ACBL Alert regulation says

Quote

When an Alert is given, ASK, do not ASSUME.

That, IMO, is why folks over here ask so often.

[JanM]

blackshoe, on Apr 21 2010, 06:23 PM, said:

The last item in the introduction to the current ACBL Alert regulation says

Quote

When an Alert is given, ASK, do not ASSUME.

That, IMO, is why folks over here ask so often.

There is also the fact that asking some of the time when you won't bid whatever the answer avoids the problem of giving your partner UI by asking questions. Surely that is a good thing.

[blackshoe]

Yes, but... "mitigate", surely, rather than "avoids entirely".

[bluejak]

Also there is the fact that it is not true. While North American players ask more often when a call is alerted, they still do not consistently ask.

[JanM]

bluejak, on Apr 22 2010, 05:22 PM, said:

Also there is the fact that it is not true. While North American players ask more often when a call is alerted, they still do not consistently ask.

Some of us try to ask randomly when we aren't interested so that a question doesn't carry UI. Of course it's impossible to avoid all UI, but having a rule that you may not ask unless you are interested in bidding results, IMO, in vastly more UI than having a rule that you may ask whether or not you have interest in bidding.

[jdonn]

UI is not the only issue, you know. Asking all the time slows the game down, and even more importantly allows opponents to work out misunderstandings in ways that might be impossible to prove.

[Pict]

jdonn, on Apr 23 2010, 01:01 PM, said:

UI is not the only issue, you know. Asking all the time slows the game down, and even more importantly allows opponents to work out misunderstandings in ways that might be impossible to prove.

I think that in the EBU zone Jdonn's point is the real reason most people rarely ask in the auction. It is not fear of arbitrary Direction, but the much more likely prompt to the opponents.

It is certainly the reason that I don't ask. Occasionally you see opponents slightly miffed and surprised that their alerts go unnoticed.

Nonetheless, I think it wrong that a player can't ask after an alert, and if quesioned say:

'He alerted and I wanted to know.'

Rather than any improbable and at least unverifiable statements such as 'I always ask'.

[bluejak]

Pict, on Apr 23 2010, 09:28 PM, said:

Nonetheless, I think it wrong that a player can't ask after an alert, and if quesioned say:

'He alerted and I wanted to know.'

Of course he can!