[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

in 3rd position, all being green, 20 board team match, one has

♠K74
♥KJ86
♦10987
♣KQ

You play a 2/1 system with a 12-14 NT opener.

The aucton goes, opponents are silent

1C (1) - 1H
1S (2) - ???

(1) at least 3 cards
(2) unbal. hand, hence at least 5clubs and at least 4 spades

The question is, do you bid 2D or do you bid 3NT.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jdonn]

Or 2NT?

[Jlall]

3N would be extremely poor, it might be imperative to play NT from partners side. Also if he is 4315 a moysian fit in hearts could easily be the right game.

So if you're forcing to game you should bid 2D. IMO forcing to game is a big overbid with this hand, and 2N is my only invite. If partner is 4315 he will bid 3H and we can still get out of NT.

[effervesce]

Jlall, on May 3 2010, 02:10 AM, said:

3N would be extremely poor, it might be imperative to play NT from partners side. Also if he is 4315 a moysian fit in hearts could easily be the right game.

So if you're forcing to game you should bid 2D. IMO forcing to game is a big overbid with this hand, and 2N is my only invite. If partner is 4315 he will bid 3H and we can still get out of NT.

If 2NT is your only invite, and forcing to game is a big overbid in your opinion, and prefer to rightside NT when it's right, wat's your call?!

Oh ok I guess you're bidding 2NT. Guess we can't right side 3NT then.

[Jlall]

effervesce, on May 3 2010, 02:17 AM, said:

Jlall, on May 3 2010, 02:10 AM, said:

3N would be extremely poor, it might be imperative to play NT from partners side. Also if he is 4315 a moysian fit in hearts could easily be the right game.

So if you're forcing to game you should bid 2D. IMO forcing to game is a big overbid with this hand, and 2N is my only invite. If partner is 4315 he will bid 3H and we can still get out of NT.

If 2NT is your only invite, and forcing to game is a big overbid in your opinion, and prefer to rightside NT when it's right, wat's your call?!

Oh ok I guess you're bidding 2NT. Guess we can't right side 3NT then.

You have your choice of overbidding to increase the chance of playing 3N from partners side, or risking wrongsiding it.

T987 is a lot better than Txxx in terms of playing it from our side at least, it might not be a disaster to play from our side and our hearts are positional (which might be their best attack if partner is 4135). Don't get me wrong obv I'd rather play it from partner's side, but I think on this hand that isn't enough of a consideration to get me to go with the overbid.

No diamond stopper and no fit and exactly invitational is a normal problem hand, but it's pretty infrequent especially when partner has shown 5 clubs and you can bid 3C with only 3 sometimes. Some people also play 2D as not GF to solve this kind of problem I guess.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

We play 2D as inv.+, but I did not want to go into this discussion,
and my guess was, that everyone would force to game with the
hand in question.

We also play a fairly solid opening style, but it is still close to
mainstream, so this has most likely no real impact.

But the good idea to just invite, giving p the chance to bid 3H did
not occur to me at the table.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Codo]

I stopped to play 4sf just invite some month ago. No big deal.

I would bid 2 Nt invitational. 3 Nt with no source of tricks and no fit and at most a marginal stopper is an overbid.

My second choice would be 3 ♣. I do not like to lie with major suit length, but with a minor, I sometimes have to. And this bid would get my honour location and my point count across, just for the price of a missing little club.

[whereagles]

ideal hand for a bluhmer 3♦!!... oh we're not playing that? oh well, 2♦ then.

and I don't think forcing to game is an overbid because we have excellent fillers in the blacks

[pooltuna]

P_Marlowe, on May 3 2010, 01:36 AM, said:

Hi,

in 3rd position, all being green, 20 board team match, one has

♠K74
♥KJ86
♦10987
♣KQ

You play a 2/1 system with a 12-14 NT opener.

The aucton goes, opponents are silent

1C (1) - 1H
1S (2) - ???

(1) at least 3 cards
(2) unbal. hand, hence at least 5clubs and at least 4 spades

The question is, do you bid 2D or do you bid 3NT.

With kind regards
Marlowe

why can't you bid 2NT?

[Phil]

I'm forcing this to game. I love my black honors and the diamond intermediates could be key for NT. My ♥8 is a nice card in case this hand comes down as dummy.

I may regret this across a 4=2=2=5 11 count.

[aguahombre]

I also bid 2NT, but am not convinced that opener will bid 3H with 4-3-1-5, unless accepting the game invite. So we will play in 2NT or in 4H opposite that distribution, not in 3.

[JanM]

Jlall, on May 3 2010, 12:10 AM, said:

3N would be extremely poor, it might be imperative to play NT from partners side. Also if he is 4315 a moysian fit in hearts could easily be the right game.

So if you're forcing to game you should bid 2D. IMO forcing to game is a big overbid with this hand, and 2N is my only invite. If partner is 4315 he will bid 3H and we can still get out of NT.

All of that is a good reason to play 2NT as forcing and 4th suit as inv+. If you think you want to force with this hand, you can still bid 2♦ to try to right-side 3NT or choose to play 4♥. If you only want to invite, you can bid 2♦ and find the right strain. OTOH, on hands where you know you want to be in game and should be declarer in NT, but might still want to play 4M instead (or maybe want to have room to investigate slam but also want partner to know you have the fourth suit under control for NT) you can bid a forcing 2NT.

Other than "everyone does it" and a little more simplicity in 4th suit auctions, I don't see a good reason to play 4th suit as forcing to game. And if 4th suit isn't a game force, then 2NT can easily be one, making some auctions easier.

[jdonn]

whereagles, on May 3 2010, 05:26 AM, said:

ideal hand for a bluhmer 3♦!!... oh we're not playing that? oh well, 2♦ then.

3♦ is not a bluhmer for at least two reasons, are you sure you know what a bluhmer is?