[aguahombre]

Mikeh, bluecalm, and Phil are respecting the vulnerablility and respecting partner. They would not be comfortable after bidding 2H and seeing (2s) and whatever partner does come back to them. They would be comfortable seeing 3S X come back. I agree with them that 3H is a better partnership bid with an in-tune partner.

I also agree with JD that 4S X coming back around would be even easier to live with, but am not sure he was serious about choosing 4H --sometimes his keen wit leaves me guessing.

[junyi_zhu]

yaohung, on May 5 2010, 02:14 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

---

1♠ from ur left hand opp then follow 1NT response

Question one:
your call?? 2♥ or 3♥ or somethingelse?

Question two:

assume you choose 2♥ or 3♥ overcall then 2♠/3♠ compete from left hand opps, Partner X as penalty

Your call? Why?

Question three:

What is partner's hand most likely?

seems a normal 2H bid, if partner can't cooperate, 4H may be remote. This hand can easily be a misfit hand after the 1S p 1N auction. After 2H 2S x, it's actually close to stay or pull. If partner is very serious on penalty doubles at IMPs, you can stay, otherwise, it's ok to bid 3H to show this 7 card suit and void in S. I don't bid 3H and I consider 3H is the worst bid among 2H/3H/4H.

[mikeh]

Quote

I don't bid 3H and I consider 3H is the worst bid among 2H/3H/4H.

I'd like to say that I was impressed by your arguments on this....but I didn't see any

Which is not surprising since, in my view, 2♥ is so bad that it's tough to compare it to 3♥. Let's see, however, if we can.

1. If partner doubles 2♠, you may leave it in or you may pull: that's a lot of help. I take it that with most partners, you'd pull, so let's assume that. If you pull, then they ain't bidding any more, so you lose the chance to catch a number against 3 or 4♠...either of which may be available if you bid 3 or 4♥ initially.

So, while I prefer 3♥, 4♥ is ok as well, from the p.o.v. of colleccting a number while 2♥ is bizarre: you will play 3♥ opposite a defensive misfit....and you never collect a number...where's the upside? Not to mention, what do you do if LHO bids 2♠ and partner passes? Bidding 3♥ allows them to make a far more informed decision, including double. While passing seems, shall we say, timid? I am morally certain that anyone faced with this auction would be kicking themselves for not bidding 3♥ earlier.

2. r/w 3♥ shows a GOOD hand, in terms of playing strength, unless you are a kamikaze player who thinks vulnerability is for children. The minimum playing strength for 3♥ is higher than the minimum playing strength for 2♥, and it also announces the 7th heart. Thus partner will raise aggressively....yes, he will not raise every time game is good, but he will not worry about Jx being insufficient length. He will almost never raise 2♥ to the 3 level, even in competition, with only 2 card support. If he does, he'd raise 3♥ as well, so bidding 2♥ never gains. So we will miss some games via 2♥ that we would reach by bidding either 3 or 4.

3. If LHO passes, maybe rho will compete in our 2 card minor...how happy are we going to be then?

As for the choice between 3 and 4: I think that is close and I acknowledge that the 4♥ bidders have some valid arguments. They don't persuade me, but I recognize that this is a close call. But as for 2♥....no thank you. It's the worst of almost all possible worlds.

[jdonn]

Weird, I understood my 4♥ was (too?) aggressive but I think 3♥ is just strange, 2♥ seems like an absolutely normal bid. What's with the desire to preempt with QJ Q outside and a suit headed by the ace as well? What's wrong with simply overcalling on an 11 count but with extra compensating shape and a very good suit?

I really disagree that 2♥ never gains, I can think of two ways it gains. Partner has some strength but a misfit and we stop in 2 (it's not unheard of they reopen with a double and penalty pass us even with a suit like this!), or if we bid 3 partner might take a bad sacrifice not expecting all this defense. Or a third way, on a lucky day we find out partner has diamonds and then, even if we decide to play in hearts, we will know to bid a lot if needed.

It seems to me like 2♥ is an attempt to describe show our hand and learn what we can, or 4♥ might make and tries to stick it to the opponents, but 3♥ is just a misdescription from someone who is too chicken to try 4.

By the way, not to pick on you mike but I can't help myself....

mikeh, on May 5 2010, 10:51 AM, said:

I'm torn between 2 and 3 and would choose 3, I think.

mikeh, on May 6 2010, 12:24 PM, said:

...in my view, 2♥ is so bad that it's tough to compare it to 3♥.

[junyi_zhu]

mikeh, on May 6 2010, 05:24 PM, said:

Quote

I don't bid 3H and I consider 3H is the worst bid among 2H/3H/4H.

I'd like to say that I was impressed by your arguments on this....but I didn't see any

Which is not surprising since, in my view, 2♥ is so bad that it's tough to compare it to 3♥. Let's see, however, if we can.

1. If partner doubles 2♠, you may leave it in or you may pull: that's a lot of help. I take it that with most partners, you'd pull, so let's assume that. If you pull, then they ain't bidding any more, so you lose the chance to catch a number against 3 or 4♠...either of which may be available if you bid 3 or 4♥ initially.

So, while I prefer 3♥, 4♥ is ok as well, from the p.o.v. of colleccting a number while 2♥ is bizarre: you will play 3♥ opposite a defensive misfit....and you never collect a number...where's the upside? Not to mention, what do you do if LHO bids 2♠ and partner passes? Bidding 3♥ allows them to make a far more informed decision, including double. While passing seems, shall we say, timid? I am morally certain that anyone faced with this auction would be kicking themselves for not bidding 3♥ earlier.

2. r/w 3♥ shows a GOOD hand, in terms of playing strength, unless you are a kamikaze player who thinks vulnerability is for children. The minimum playing strength for 3♥ is higher than the minimum playing strength for 2♥, and it also announces the 7th heart. Thus partner will raise aggressively....yes, he will not raise every time game is good, but he will not worry about Jx being insufficient length. He will almost never raise 2♥ to the 3 level, even in competition, with only 2 card support. If he does, he'd raise 3♥ as well, so bidding 2♥ never gains. So we will miss some games via 2♥ that we would reach by bidding either 3 or 4.

3. If LHO passes, maybe rho will compete in our 2 card minor...how happy are we going to be then?

As for the choice between 3 and 4: I think that is close and I acknowledge that the 4♥ bidders have some valid arguments. They don't persuade me, but I recognize that this is a close call. But as for 2♥....no thank you. It's the worst of almost all possible worlds.

lol. Did I provide any arguments on this in that post? I am only saying what I would bid over a possible penalty double against 2S. This is a typical simple overcall hand with a good suit and 11 HCP. Perhaps some Canadian (I am sure just some) like to preempt with a lot of HCP, which certainly isn't a normal style in the rest of the world. Also, Josh's reply is certainly what I want to say, 3H is just too weird to me.

[mikeh]

jdonn, on May 6 2010, 12:34 PM, said:

Quote

By the way, not to pick on you mike but I can't help myself....

mikeh, on May 5 2010, 10:51 AM, said:

I'm torn between 2 and 3 and would choose 3, I think.

mikeh, on May 6 2010, 12:24 PM, said:

...in my view, 2♥ is so bad that it's tough to compare it to 3♥.

Hey...I never claimed to be consistent...plus, I get better as I get older, and I now see, plainly, how bad 2♥ is