[dburn]

Not enough information. If double "would not be penalty", what would it be?

[Gerben42]

Quote

  Not enough information. If double "would not be penalty", what would it be?

A 2-suiter with 4M + 5+m (Woolsey).

[Gerben42]

Scoring: IMP

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This was the full hand. The two actions that were considered are bidding 4♥ directly and bidding Multi planning to make another move. I tried the first at the table and it went

Pass Pass 1NT 4♥
5♣ 5♥ X Pass
Pass Pass

I had some hopes that opener had 3253 but unfortunately he didn't, so down 1. I guess if you bid like this you need to play Pass-Double-Inversion so partner doubles to show a 5♥ bid and with your defense you then convert to penalty.

The real question is then, how does partner know that PDI applies here?

[MFA]

Gerben42, on Jun 6 2010, 01:39 AM, said:

I had some hopes that opener had 3253 but unfortunately he didn't, so down 1. I guess if you bid like this you need to play Pass-Double-Inversion so partner doubles to show a 5♥ bid and with your defense you then convert to penalty.

The real question is then, how does partner know that PDI applies here?

I don't see why pass-double inversion has anything to do with this situation.

Pass-double inversion is a convention that applies in forcing pass situations. This is not a forcing pass situation.

Even if had agreed to play forcing pass in this situation, pass-double inversion would not help. Pass-double inversion simply inverts the basic meaning of a pass and that of a double. If we have a hand that would normally make a warning double (still given it is a forcing pass situation), we would pass instead with the same meaning. And if we have a forcing pass hand (in doubt of bidding 5 or defending) we would double to show that.

The gain of pass-double inversion comes solely in pass-and-pull sequences. Pass and pull sequences has a weakness with standard methods if partner pulls a forcing pass himself. That is what pass-double inversion can do better, and only that.

[cherdanno]

So playing PDI here double would mean "Please bid 5♥ if you had a 4♥ bid, but please pass in case you had both too much defense and too little offense (such as a defensive 7222)!"?
I already have a bid for that - 5♥.

[Codo]

I had choosen 4 ♥ at the table too.
Bad luck that RHO had the cohones to bid 5 ♣ and partner such a good fit.

[Gerben42]

I'm just thinking "can we see that this Dbl from the passed hand cannot be for penalty" (given that most doubles aren't anyway). At other tables, it went 1♠ (4♥) and now the opponents didn't know of a fit and didn't try 5♣.

So I'm still not so convinced that I should bid slowly, so opponents can find their save of the 4♥ that we are likely going to bid.

[dake50]

2D. some try to get partner declaring as only DAQ are tenaced here.
And I want the 14-16 hand to commit from something on opening lead.
Then 3H raise or correcting 2S.

As others note, wish I had X as strong competing start.