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Your Response?

#21 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2010-June-06, 17:57

hanp, on Jun 6 2010, 09:13 PM, said:

I gave partner a 5332 distribution with 12-13 HCP. On those hands 4H makes 45% of the time double dummy.

Do most 5332 13-counts pass 1NT? Given that a lot of of 5332 14-counts get upgraded to a 1NT opening, that doesn't leave us with many hands that are "semi-forced".
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#22 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2010-June-06, 18:01

jdonn, on Jun 6 2010, 08:06 PM, said:

2♥ even though it's clearly an overbid since after 1NT I am likely to have a guess next round and not get my shape across.

I think that's the more important of the two reasons for preferring 2♥. 1NT would be much more attractive if we thought that we'd have a good auction after 1♠-1NT;2m.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#23 User is offline   peachy 

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Posted 2010-June-06, 18:04

1NT. For me, this is not even a problem.
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#24 User is offline   hijumper 

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Posted 2010-June-06, 19:25

1nt then 3h
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#25 User is offline   hanp 

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Posted 2010-June-07, 02:14

gnasher, on Jun 6 2010, 06:57 PM, said:

hanp, on Jun 6 2010, 09:13 PM, said:

I gave partner a 5332 distribution with 12-13 HCP. On those hands 4H makes 45% of the time double dummy.

Do most 5332 13-counts pass 1NT? Given that a lot of of 5332 14-counts get upgraded to a 1NT opening, that doesn't leave us with many hands that are "semi-forced".

Yes I pass most 5332 13-counts. You?
and the result can be plotted on a graph.
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#26 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-June-07, 03:57

2♥ but not happy with it.
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#27 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2010-June-07, 05:05

kfay, on Jun 6 2010, 11:00 AM, said:

Q QJ8765 KQ Q864

Partner opens a modern 1♠ 1st seat r/w IMPs.

You can bid 1NT semi-forcing or make a 2/1 GF.  What do you do?

What is "semi forcing"? It is either forcing or not. Can you be semi pregnant? A semi virgin?
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#28 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-June-07, 05:15

The_Hog, on Jun 7 2010, 12:05 PM, said:

kfay, on Jun 6 2010, 11:00 AM, said:

Q QJ8765 KQ Q864

Partner opens a modern 1♠ 1st seat r/w IMPs.

You can bid 1NT semi-forcing or make a 2/1 GF.  What do you do?

What is "semi forcing"? It is either forcing or not. Can you be semi pregnant? A semi virgin?

1NT openings are usually semi balanced :P
semi forcing means it's not forcing, but partner will seldom pass.
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#29 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2010-June-07, 05:18

hanp, on Jun 7 2010, 09:14 AM, said:

Yes I pass most 5332 13-counts. You?

I hardly ever play a semi-forcing notrump - I prefer to make my life miserable by cramming all the invitational hands into the two- and three-level responses.

I suppose the cutoff should depend on how many 5332 11-counts you open (all of them, in my case) and how many 5332 14-counts get upgraded (more than half, for me).
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#30 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2010-June-07, 05:20

Free, on Jun 7 2010, 12:15 PM, said:

semi forcing means it's not forcing, but partner will seldom pass.

I think it means specifically that opener will bid again with some 5332 shapes that were too weak to open 1NT.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#31 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2010-June-07, 05:20

Free, on Jun 7 2010, 06:15 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Jun 7 2010, 12:05 PM, said:

kfay, on Jun 6 2010, 11:00 AM, said:

Q QJ8765 KQ Q864

Partner opens a modern 1♠ 1st seat r/w IMPs.

You can bid 1NT semi-forcing or make a 2/1 GF.  What do you do?

What is "semi forcing"? It is either forcing or not. Can you be semi pregnant? A semi virgin?

1NT openings are usually semi balanced :P
semi forcing means it's not forcing, but partner will seldom pass.

David Stevenson, well known tournament director, takes great umbrage at this oxymoron. Perhaps "wide ranging NT response would be a better terminology"?
I would like to bid a modern 2D transfer to 2H. Now that would be nice if available.

(Actually I once knew a girl in my youth who claimed to be a semi virgin).
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#32 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2010-June-07, 05:29

Schwarzenegger played a semi pregnant man in one of his sillier movies. The title was Junior, I just looked it up.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
      George Carlin
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#33 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-June-07, 05:31

gnasher, on Jun 7 2010, 12:20 PM, said:

Free, on Jun 7 2010, 12:15 PM, said:

semi forcing means it's not forcing, but partner will seldom pass.

I think it means specifically that opener will bid again with some 5332 shapes that were too weak to open 1NT.

What it does mean in practice is the following: "Don't pass if you would accept an invite". So opener's rebids are either balanced which would accept an invite, or a normal natural response.

As for the terminology: there are probably better names for it, but it's not the worst you can find. Personally I have more problems with the term "non forcing stayman" while nobody ever passes 1NT-2♣ when the 1NT opening wasn't psyched. :P
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#34 User is offline   hanp 

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Posted 2010-June-07, 05:43

Some people definitely can't be semi-annoying!

Gnasher, your interpretation of semi-forcing is not mine. With 5332 I pass if I would later pass a 3-card limit raise. If I know I'm going to play in a partscore anyway, and I'm balanced, I might as well play 1NT. I don't open that many 5332 11-counts.

This discussion reminds me of the time some years ago when I was watching Michael Rosenberg play. Zia bid a semi-forcing 1NT (if David Stevenson was watching he might have corrected Rosenberg's explanation, but fortunately he was not). Rosenberg thought and thought and thought, and finally passed, showing a balanced 13-count.

By the way, I don't bid 1NT with an invitational hand and 6 hearts.
and the result can be plotted on a graph.
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#35 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2010-June-07, 05:48

hanp, on Jun 7 2010, 12:43 PM, said:

Gnasher, your interpretation of semi-forcing is not mine. With 5332 I pass if I would later pass a 3-card limit raise.

I'm confused. How does that differ from my interpretation?
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#36 User is offline   hanp 

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Posted 2010-June-07, 05:57

No need to be confused, your definition is still there, on page 2 of this thread.
and the result can be plotted on a graph.
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#37 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2010-June-07, 06:13

Free, on Jun 7 2010, 12:31 PM, said:

As for the terminology: there are probably better names for it, but it's not the worst you can find.  Personally I have more problems with the term "non forcing stayman" while nobody ever passes 1NT-2♣ when the 1NT opening wasn't psyched.  :P

If I were looking for bridge terminology to be annoyed by, I would also consider "Namyats" (which is not in any sense reverse Stayman), "Unusual over Unusual" (which doesn't involve making an unusual bid to show a two-suiter) and "Negative double" (which, as used these days, makes a positive statement about the doubler's hand).
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#38 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2010-June-07, 06:26

hanp, on Jun 7 2010, 12:57 PM, said:

No need to be confused, your definition is still there, on page 2 of this thread.

I'm not confused about what I wrote - even my short-term memory is up to that.

me said:

opener will bid again with some 5332 shapes that were too weak to open 1NT.


Han said:

With 5332 I pass if I would later pass a 3-card limit raise.


I still don't see any inconsistency between these two: with a balanced 12-count both you and I would pass; with a balanced 14-count we would both (I assume) bid.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#39 User is offline   hanp 

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Posted 2010-June-07, 06:39

I think that not only the words are different.

According to you the essense is that with some 5332's to weak to open 1NT, opener still bids. This to distinguish it from the standard (for you) non-forcing 1NT response.

I view it the other way around: opener passes with some 5332's. This is the difference with the standard (for me) forcing notrump.

When I play 14-16 notrumps, I pass with all 5332 hands to weak to open 1NT. I would bid 1NT with pretty much the same hands and view it as the same convention. But it violates what you think a semi-forcing 1NT response is specifically about.

By the way, when playing live bridge I don't use the words semi-forcing, partly because I speak Dutch. I alert 1NT and say that is not forcing but can be up to about an 11-count.
and the result can be plotted on a graph.
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#40 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2010-June-07, 09:47

My definition of the annoying "semi-forcing 1N" matches Han's.

As Justin pointed out to me a while back, 14-16 NT functions well with a SF1N, for some of the reasons pointed out in this thread. We pass with a minimum 5332 (11+ - 13) so 2 of a minor tends to show 4+ cards.

I will reiterate the importance to either play 2/1 as a 'soft' GF, or play 3 level JS's as invitational.
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