[Orla]

A difference of opinion, so I was told to take it here.

Bidding goes:
Pass - Pass - 1♠ - ?

In fourth seat do you double for take out or bid your clubs holding:
♠ 8 6
♥ K 8 5
♦ K Q T
♣ K J 9 8 7

[wank]

2c would be a terrible bid unless you're doing it green at matchpoints for the lead. at any other form of scoring even thinking of it is a shooting offence.

[Orla]

Could you explain why? Also could you say what you would bid and why?

[aguahombre]

double>>Pass>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>2C

[dburn]

You need to understand that wank is from the modern school that has dispensed with a 3♠ overcall to ask for a spade guard for 3NT; to him and those like him, a 2♣ overcall has exactly the same significance.

To be honest, I'm not sure I'd bother bidding with this hand at all. But if I did consider doing so, it would help me to know the vulnerability and the form of scoring.

[Orla]

Sorry, I always forget that. We were all white and playing IMPs.

[aguahombre]

OK, all white at IMPS, Pass>>double>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>2c

[Hanoi5]

Double is better than 2♣. Pass might be better than 2♣.

[gwnn]

alllwayyyyssss double

neeeeeveeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr bid 2♣

[MickyB]

wank, on Jun 13 2010, 11:58 PM, said:

2c would be a terrible bid unless you're doing it green at matchpoints for the lead. at any other form of scoring even thinking of it is a shooting offence.

Why, 'cos you have such a vile objection to a lead of either red suit?

Yeah I'm not considering 2♣ here. I might pass, because the oppo have the boss suit, partner has passed so we can't have game values and I have a balanced hand. Double is much better than 2♣ because it enables us to find fits in three suits, both for competing and for escaping going for a penalty. Also, if I bid 2♣ they are quite likely to take a penalty when it is there, whereas if I double they may well bid something immediately rather than waiting to find out what suit we are about to play in.

Think of 2♣ as putting all of your eggs in one basket, while double keeps your options open.

The other benefit of doubling on hands like this is that when pard overcalls 2♣, you know he is serious about it, and you can raise more freely.

[kfay]

Double is better than 2♣, in my opinion, because our hand is perfectly suitable to play in a red suit also.

Not sure it's worth bidding at this point. Partner passed, we will most likely have time to try to win the partscore battle later, if applicable.

[Apollo81]

I would pass.

The only point of bidding is to get into the auction if it is our hand, direct a lead, or take up the opponents' bidding room. It's doubtful that it's our hand, we don't have a strong lead preference, and neither double nor 2♣ will take up much room. I think this is clearcut if we were in third seat, as the risk of going for a number is significant (LHO can hold a very good hand with a misfit). Here in 4th seat, the risk of bidding is considerably reduced. However, I think we will normally get a chance to balance if it really is our hand, so I would pass, comfortably.

[gwnn]

Noble said:

The only point of bidding is to get into the auction if it is our hand, direct a lead, or take up the opponents' bidding room.

What if points are evenly divided? Whose hand is it then?

[655321]

Double of course, we have an opening hand with short spades and support for the other 3 suits.

[lmilne]

Double is better because

a.) you have support for the other suits, 2♣ sounds like 6+ suit, and partner will expect a stiff in 5-card red suit a lot of time, not this great support you have;

b.) you have a 5-card suit with gaps, all that needs to happen for you to go for a number (300 or even 500) is the guy on your left has AQTxxx and your partner doesn't have much help in the off-suits. Double doesn't really risk this, as partner has a choice of places to play after a XX, and can pass to imply doubt (then you have an easy 2♣ bid).

c.) your partner will strain to lead clubs after you bid clubs, even when a red suit is better, which you have a clue that it may easily be.

d.) while dbl isn't preemptive, neither is 2♣. With a different sort of hand, over an opening bid of 1♦, you might get an overcall out of me, just because people suck at 1♦-(2♣) auctions (likewise 1♣-(2♦)). Not this hand though, and definitely not over 1♠.

e.) your partner should know that 5332 is a normal takeout double shape (with a minor, shortage in opened suit). So you can still get to club fits.

f.) as MickyB said, if you tighten up your range for 2♣ bids, throwing more of your usual bids in with either X or pass, then when you bid 2♣ your partner isn't worried about these hands, and knows you are serious about it.

In general, the theme is that 2-level overcalls are more committal, more dangerous and more preemptive than X, so you should bid when you have hands that fit into this category (less doubt about strain, better hands, or the opponents will have problems if you preempt the 1-level). Did I miss anything?

[Phil]

Even though I don't we have a game, I would rather take a call now than later. I have adequate support for all the unbid suits, an opening hand and shortness in their suit so I'll x.

[Little Kid]

This seems like it might end up being a partscore battle, so I'll describe my hand to partner now while it is still safe. I have some nicely placed honours behind the opener so this hand could easily still be ours. At this vul I'd be happy to go down 1 in 3♦ or so against their 2♠ contract. Agree with everyone else as to the reasons why Double is a better call than 2♣.

[Free]

Dbl for me. 2♣ is aweful. Pass is acceptable but I'd like to get my hand across immediately.

[Codo]

I would pass. I would overcall 2 club- but just over 1 Diamond.

I would not double now. I have a weak opening bid (12 HCPS, no shape), no aces, no 4 card Major, no singleton spade, a passed partner. One flaw less and I would. (And a 2434 with 12 HCPS has less playing strength then the actual hand, but still..)

[andy_h]

Double. I don't see a problem in this. We have an opening hand, shortage in RHO's suit and support for all suits. We could belong in any other suit including NT's from partner's side. I want to act now rather than later (balancing) as it's much safer, and I certainly don't want to give in to RHO's 1♠ when it was made in 3rd seat.