[gnasher]

CSGibson, on Jun 20 2010, 08:34 PM, said:

does no one play a negative double for that hand?

If double shows x x KJxxxx AQJxx, what do you do with Qx xxx KJxx AQxx? If you double on both hands, your double has a horribly wide range.

Being able to differentiate between these two types easily makes up for the loss of a once-in-a-blue-moon ace-ask.

[Phil]

I think an improvement would be to play 5♥ as some sort of RKC. Perhaps 5♠ rejects and other calls answer.

Agree that 4N should be minors.

[jdonn]

gnasher, on Jun 20 2010, 05:00 PM, said:

CSGibson, on Jun 20 2010, 08:34 PM, said:

does no one play a negative double for that hand?

If double shows x x KJxxxx AQJxx, what do you do with Qx xxx KJxx AQxx? If you double on both hands, your double has a horribly wide range.

Being able to differentiate between these two types easily makes up for the loss of a once-in-a-blue-moon ace-ask.

I find your example contrived because the 6 card suit is so bad, normally if you have a 6 card suit and find yourself unsuitable for double you can just bid it.

I also find it a bit strange that the ace ask is called once in a blue moon by anyone who plays GSF here.

Anyway doesn't it make the most sense that double has the most possible hand types included in it since it's the lowest bid and 4♥X or 4♠ may be the right contract opposite many types of responding hands?

[the hog]

CSGibson, on Jun 21 2010, 02:34 AM, said:

hanp, on Jun 20 2010, 10:52 AM, said:

Since whatever I bid over 4H (except 4s) suggests good strength

How does that help you to bid a gameforcing hand with both minors if you play 4NT as RKC?

does no one play a negative double for that hand?

That was going to be my next post.

[gnasher]

jdonn, on Jun 21 2010, 04:18 AM, said:

I find your example contrived because the 6 card suit is so bad, normally if you have a 6 card suit and find yourself unsuitable for double you can just bid it.

That was Han's example.

Regardless of the details of the examples, there are hands with both minors which know that they want to bid to five of a minor, and to offer a choice of suits on the way; and there are more balanced hands which may want to defend 4♥x. If you double on both, and partner tries to cater for the latter type, you will usually end up defending 4♥ on the hands where you know you want to bid 5m. Alternatively, if he assumes that you have a hand that wants to bid 5m, sometimes he will bid when he shouldn't.

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I also find it a bit strange that the ace ask is called once in a blue moon by anyone who plays GSF here.

That would indeed be strange, but I didn't say I play GSF here. In the only partnership where I've discussed it, 5NT would be a three-suited choice of slams.

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Anyway doesn't it make the most sense that double has the most possible hand types included in it since it's the lowest bid and 4♥X or 4♠ may be the right contract opposite many types of responding hands?

There is a trade-off between flexibility and accuracy. The wider the range, the harder it is to bid opposite.
It makes sense for double to include the hands where it's likely that we want to defend 4♥x. It doesn't make sense for double to include hands where responder already knows he wants to play 5m.

[hanp]

I didn't think my example was particularly contrived. Make it x x KQxxxx AQxxx if you wish, or anything where the 6-card suit isn't considerably stronger than the 5-card suit. On these hands I'd much prefer to bid 4NT than double or bid 5D.

I think that after a double partner will reasonably often bid 4S on a good 5-card suit.

I play 5NT as pick a slam, but it could also be spades and diamonds for example, with something like Jxx A AKxxxx Axx I might bid it (didn't spend a lot of time thinking about this example so it might be contrived).

5H is a slam try in spades with heart control, 5S is a slam try in spades without a heart control. I think that 6H should be a try for grand with a heart void. It could be good to play 6H as asking for a particular amount of top trump honors but I don't play it as such.

I agree with gransher that a negative double tends to be more balanced at this level, 2245 is a typical shape I think.

[bluecalm]

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5NT is definitely pick a minor suit slam. How else does one get partner's input when one has both minors!

4NT, wtp ?

I think 5NT should be GSF. I am not into this convention and I would readily play without it but here I don't see anything else useful.
I think playing 4NT as blackwood here is stone age bridge. If somehow I am forced to have other meaning for 4NT than t/o for minors I would prefer for example slam try in ♠ without ♥ cue.
Doubling with things like 1-1-5-6 is lol. Double should be negative promising at least xx of partner's suit (preferably Hx). How is partner supposed to make intelligent decision if we can have hands like: Kx Ax AKxx xxxx for the double or some kind of offensive monster like x x KQJTxx AQJxx

6♥ one I don't really know. I hope my partner won't ever come up with such bid.