[luke warm]

after a nt opening? this is from a recent FOT tourney

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     Pass  1♥    Pass
 4♠    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

the question is, how do e/w bid this after 1nt by north? btw, 1♥ is moscito, promises 9-15 with 4 spades, could also have longer minor

[hrothgar]

Surprise:

I was the 4♠ bidding. Systemically, I have the option to bid 2N, showing a game invitational raise, with 4+ card Spade support.

In this case, I figured that 4♠ looked to be a good double shot. Who knows, we might make 4♠. Even if we went down, I dodn't feel comfortable defending against a heart contract.

In any case, if North starts with a 1NT opening, then East has a clear double playing our methods. (Playing Lionel, X = 4+ Spades). I'll probably bounce to 4!S, once again...

[luke warm]

man richard, talk about multi-tasking!!! heheheh... ok, i can see how lionel x might get there since (if i remember it correctly) it requires 10+ to bid

in all honesty, i think this is just another example of how weak nt can mess up the ops... despite your (possible) 4S bid after 1nt opening, it would still make life more difficult

[Free]

WOW you post this stuff while the tourney is still going on

[luke warm]

me!!?? lolol... kibbers are free as the wind

[the hog]

"in all honesty, i think this is just another example of how weak nt can mess up the ops... despite your (possible) 4S bid after 1nt opening, it would still make life more difficult "

Why Luke?
(1N) 2D (2H) 4S
2D = S and another or S and a minor depending on whether you play Aspro or Asptro.

Seems pretty easy to me...............

[luke warm]

doesn't seem that simple to me... nobody vulnerable, hand belongs to ops (on hcp alone, which we know isn't always reliable)... the hands do fit perfectly this time, making 10 tricks on a 19 count... however, give west one more club and one fewer heart... would he bid the same?

as the bidding went, i think 4S was a good shot... after north opens 1nt tho, i think 4S is only right *this* time... of course, only this time counts

[hrothgar]

luke warm, on Aug 2 2004, 02:57 AM, said:

doesn't seem that simple to me... nobody vulnerable, hand belongs to ops (on hcp alone, which we know isn't always reliable)... the hands do fit perfectly this time, making 10 tricks on a 19 count... however, give west one more club and one fewer heart... would he bid the same?

as the bidding went, i think 4S was a good shot... after north opens 1nt tho, i think 4S is only right *this* time... of course, only this time counts

After a weak NT

(A) We have the strong hand sandwiched between us
(B We can place the missing points, allowing considerably more accuracy declaring

[the hog]

Agree totally with Richard.
Also Luke I guess you mean 1 extra H and 1 fewer C. Now no, the hand is worth an invitational 3S now. The stiff H is great for a 4S contract.

[inquiry]

(1N) 2♦ ( P) 2n
( P) 3♠ ( P) 4♠
all pass

2♦ = diamonds and a major
2NT = tell me more
3♠ = spades and not minimum

If overcalller thought his hand was minimum, he could bid 3♦ which shows spades and minimum.

[Free]

Sorry Ben, but I think this bidding of yours is garbage .

After 2♦ you're almost sure partner's Major is ♥, and I don't know weither you play 44+ or 54+, but with bidding 2NT you take the risk of ending in 4♦ in a 4-3 fit if partner rebids 3♥, or in a 5-3 fit when you promisse 5+♦ (then the bidding might make some sense).

This is a great bidding when you see partner's hand, but at the table you won't bid like this imo...

[luke warm]

first of all, it wouldn't start (1nt) 2d (p), it'd probably start (1nt) 2d (2h), or even (1nt) 2d (2s) where 2d showed spades... what, if any, difference this makes i don't know, but that's what i'd expect to happen

also, ben said if overcaller thought the hand was a minimum he'd sign off in 3d... well the hand *is* a minimum imho

[inquiry]

luke warm, on Aug 2 2004, 05:55 AM, said:

first of all, it wouldn't start (1nt) 2d (p), it'd probably start (1nt) 2d (2h), or even (1nt) 2d (2s) where 2d showed spades... what, if any, difference this makes i don't know, but that's what i'd expect to happen

also, ben said if overcaller thought the hand was a minimum he'd sign off in 3d... well the hand *is* a minimum imho

No.. if overcall thought he was minimum, he would bid 3♦ to show diamonds and spadesa, and a minimum. This is most definately not a signoff. IT shows the major held and the strenght of the hand. If he had hearts and a minimum he would bid 3♣, and that too most clearly would not be a signoff.

Responder hearing a 3♦ minimum bid looking at prime cards... (A of clubs, A diamond, singleton heart, four card spade support) will iether invite game v1ia 3♥, or bid game. He clearly will not signoff. If he invites game, overcaller will bid it. IF he bids game, they are there.

[inquiry]

Free, on Aug 2 2004, 04:57 AM, said:

Sorry Ben, but I think this bidding of yours is garbage  .

After 2♦ you're almost sure partner's Major is ♥, and I don't know weither you play 44+ or 54+, but with bidding 2NT you take the risk of ending in 4♦ in a 4-3 fit if partner rebids 3♥, or in a 5-3 fit when you promisse 5+♦ (then the bidding might make some sense).

This is a great bidding when you see partner's hand, but at the table you won't bid like this imo...

I am not almost sure what my partners major is... unlike you free, I don't guess what to do based upon the phase the moon might be in. As advancer, I have a very nice hand.

What are you suggesting, pass with 10 hcp and play 2D? Partner is free to have quite a monster, and even with hearts, 3NT mibht be on ice for you. IF he has only 4 diamonds, then he has a very good hand (If he had 5H and 4D, he likely to show just hearts, if he is 4-4 he has a good hand else pass). I hold 10 hcp, If partner shows a minimum hand and hearts, we play 3♦, if he shows a maximum hand and hearts we play 3NT and hope they can't take too many spades, or we might even try 4/5 diamonds, both should be relatively safe. If he shows spades, well there you go.. that is why you make the bid.

You bid your way, it works for you. I will continue to bid mine. The only way for me to investigate where to play the hand logically is with 2NT. 2H/2S are pass correct issues, as us a jump to 3H/3S. Bidding hearts shows either both majors or the bid major and diamonds, bidding spades shows spades and diamonds. So in fact, I could bid 2S with this hand, but I get to play 2S if I do. The 2NT bid leaves all doors open. If partner bids 3C, I play 3S. If he bid 3D, I can play 3/4 spades, if he bids 3H, I can try 3NT, if he bids 3S, I will surely bid 4S, if not cue-bid 4♣. You can take it to the bank, I most certainly would bid this way at the table, so you had best chance your opinion, at least about how I bid, at least imo.

Ben

[Free]

Ben

on first sight the bidding you gave didn't look healthy, but now that you've explained continuations after 2NT it makes more sense to bid that way. However, it seems your response structure over 2NT is:
3♣ lets you play in 3S, so S and minimum?
3♦ lets you play in 3S or 4S, so S and medium?
3♠ gets you to 4S, so S and maximum?
3♥ seems to be H since you want to play 3NT...
and that partner should have 5+♦s.

I think I'd need the full structure to be able to judge this bidding 100% right, you probably have made a typo or you must have some other bid available to investigate. Otherwise I can't follow the logic of the structure, or I'm losing it

[inquiry]

Free, on Aug 2 2004, 10:37 AM, said:

Ben

on first sight the bidding you gave didn't look healthy, but now that you've explained continuations after 2NT it makes more sense to bid that way.  However, it seems your response structure over 2NT is:
3♣ lets you play in 3S, so S and minimum?
3♦ lets you play in 3S or 4S, so S and medium?
3♠ gets you to 4S, so S and maximum?
3♥ seems to be H since you want to play 3NT...
and that partner should have 5+♦s.

I think I'd need the full structure to be able to judge this bidding 100% right, you probably have made a typo or you must have some other bid available to investigate.  Otherwise I can't follow the logic of the structure, or I'm losing it   

Free,, if partner bids 3♣, we will play in 3♦, not 3♠. The reason is if over 2NT, partenr bids 3♣ he has a weakish hand with hearts and diamonds. With 10 hcp and no major fit, I have no desire to go beyond 3♦ in that case, and certainly not to what might be a 4-1 spade fit with a spade suit headed by the x.

Here is what my response schedule is to 2NT response...

2NT - tell me more
    3♣ = weak hands, the minor I bid plus hearts
    3♦ = weak hand, the minor I bid plus spades
    3♥ = solid overcall, the minor I bid plus ♥
    3♠ = solid overcall, the minor I bid plus ♠

The overcaller hand is marginial between a solid overcall and weak overcall. Bear in mind, 2NT implies either both major (sure major fit), or one of teh majors and a fit for the minor. Also bear in mind that responder, with such a hand could have started with, for instance, a 3H bid (hearts and either diamond fit or spades == a paradox raise), or a 3S bid (spades and a diamond fit). Likewise, responder could have started 2♠ which shows spades, and by implication, implies a diamond fit since he didn't bid 2♥ as pass/correct without a diamond fit. In reality, sometimes the diamond fit has been missing with this bid.

So when I bid 2NT here, I plan on 3S/4S, 3D or maybe 3NT. If partner shows spades, I will at least invite game. If partner shows hearts and weak I will signoff in diamonds. If partner shows hearts and strong, I will look to the sky for inspiration... Here are the options...

(1NT)-2D-(P)-2NT-(P)-?
    3C <-- weak with reds, I sign off in 5-3 diamond fit
    3D <-- weak with ♠/♦ I choose between 4S/3S
    3H <---sound reds, I bid 3♠ to see how he bids or bid 3NT
    3S <-- sound ♠/♦ I bid 4♣ as slam try

Now then, the question is would this hand be a sound overcall? I think yes, given partner has either a spade fit (both majors) or a diamond fit with short short spades. So I would tend not to be embarrashed. However if you do bid 3D as minimum and partner corrects to 3S, you would surely carry on to game with this overcall hand.

Ben

[luke warm]

inquiry, on Aug 2 2004, 02:14 PM, said:

luke warm, on Aug 2 2004, 05:55 AM, said:

first of all, it wouldn't start (1nt) 2d (p), it'd probably start (1nt) 2d (2h), or even (1nt) 2d (2s) where 2d showed spades... what, if any, difference this makes i don't know, but that's what i'd expect to happen

also, ben said if overcaller thought the hand was a minimum he'd sign off in 3d... well the hand *is* a minimum imho

No.. if overcall thought he was minimum, he would bid 3♦ to show diamonds and spadesa, and a minimum. This is most definately not a signoff. IT shows the major held and the strenght of the hand. If he had hearts and a minimum he would bid 3♣, and that too most clearly would not be a signoff.

Responder hearing a 3♦ minimum bid looking at prime cards... (A of clubs, A diamond, singleton heart, four card spade support) will iether invite game v1ia 3♥, or bid game. He clearly will not signoff. If he invites game, overcaller will bid it. IF he bids game, they are there.

ok, sorry... i wasn't going by your structure, but by free/hrothgar (lionel, where the overcall is 10+)... given that, i think free's 2d is minimum *for the bid*... that was what i meant

[Trpltrbl]

After weak NT, and I do love them, East has to come in directly.
Other N/S will be playing 3♥. No matter which method you play, East can get in showing eith ♣ and major or ♠ and minor.
And West has game going hand after that.

Mike