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Game force or invitation? Astonished by replies in RGG...

Poll: Your bid in 2/1 GF (22 member(s) have cast votes)

Your bid in 2/1 GF

  1. 1NT forcing -- I keep them out of hearts (4 votes [18.18%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.18%

  2. 2C (100% GF) -- I count ZAR points (17 votes [77.27%])

    Percentage of vote: 77.27%

  3. 3C invitational 6+clubs -- let partner decide whether my clubs are useful (1 votes [4.55%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.55%

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#21 User is offline   Trpltrbl 

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Posted 2004-August-07, 22:03

I will bid 2, only because my Qx of and singleton .
And I am one of few people who can rebid 3 as invitational. :ph34r:

Mike :D
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#22 User is offline   mishovnbg 

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Posted 2004-August-08, 08:50

Hand in example is GF(3NT) statisticaly. There is low chances for void , so you make 7 tricks on finesse . Even with light opening your p have statisticaly 10hcp, normaly AKQJ scattered in suits. This mean 1 sure trick for A and 1 more when you take opening lead with your stopper. But question is how to bid it, of course preferable by p, because he hold stoppers.
It is impossible to do this playing 2/1 GF without some lie, because 2/1 system sacrificing inv part of 2/1 bids, is very uneffective in most common case of inv responsive hands and lead often to wrong sided NT contracts after 1NT RF. Even clear 2/1 GF bid, which rarely comes, actually does not bring any advantages. Because of above weaknesses you need also ton of gadgets to avoid it and lead to unnecessary complication of system to about 300 pages.
I will illustrate my thoughts by given in post example:
1-2(only possible nat GF bid in 2/1),
2(most common rebid) - 3(without lie only possible bid)
?

Without gadgets continuations here are very unclear. Depending of reponder's intentions bids of opener must be different. If 3 establish suit and show slam try cue bids and serious/frivolous 3NT apply. If 3 was for finding best game, then bids are stoppers and deny stopper in unbid suit, which is case in example. Because these 2 possibilities contradict each other, you again need some gadget...

What is the solution? IMO - give up playing nat GF responses, switch to transfers and one GF relay :)
Misho
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#23 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2004-August-08, 09:32

I've seen many people giving up the 2/1 as GF in several sequences, such as

1M 2m
2M 3m

(that one is more or less standard) or

1S 2m
2x 2S = picture bid. Good minor suit, with honest support

Misho, care to elaborate a bit on the transfer idea? That sounds interesting and modern.
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#24 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2004-August-08, 09:50

2C for me too, even though I open light. This hand should play well in notrump, spades or clubs. If we go down due to a terrible misfit.. too bad.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#25 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2004-August-09, 09:52

Ok, thanks for the replies. The overwhelming consensus of choosing the game force is what I would have expected. I was surprised that about half the respondents in RGG considered this only an invitational hand (although I didn't remember them to be very light openers).
I learned that my surprise might have been shared by others here, but that I should rather treat it as invitational when playing with inquiry, as he seems to open balanced 10/11 counts with a bad 5cd spade suit (that is how I understood your description of the hands that would pass 1NT)...
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