[Poky]

We vul. IMPs.

♠KJ864
♥86
♦KJ86
♣86

pass - 1♣ - 3♥ - ???

[OSH]

I'm not an expert, but I'm sure that the answer 3d is wrong!
Are you playing SAYC?

Not being an expert, I will not say that I would bid 3s.

[Chamaco]

Add my vote for double:
- safest available bid
- right on values
- spade suit is not so strong to be a huge loss if pard has only 3 card support.

[EricK]

Fairly close between double and Pass, IMO. But I go for double. If I have 3 Hearts and I club, I would pass (and hope partner can reopen with a double). If I had 1 Heart and 3 Clubs, I think double is clear.

3 Spades seems an overbid because partner will be very keen to raise to game at this vulnerability, and I don't think the odds favour it.

Eric

[joker_gib]

Pass : too weak, bad suits, no single !

Let's hope partner has to re-open

If we have something then the preempt did its job !

[luke warm]

i pass, but i don't like to... hoping pard can reopen

[inquiry]

Well, 3♦ and 3♠ and other are all non-starters.

The only consideration here is for either DBL or PASS.

At Matchpoints, any vulnerability, I pass, but this is an imp problem.

At imps not vul, I pass. At imps vul, this becomes a little more difficult. We might have a vulnerable game in spades and if I pass they might easily get to play 3H.

If LHO was unpassed at imps and I was vul, the risk of bidding would increased, so pass would still be clear. But now we have a fuzzy area. West couldn't open and East is weak. This removes a lot of the risk of bidding (not going for four digits), and being vul, the potenitial gain for bidding has increased (vulenrable game).

I don't like it. I am light for it, but under the conditions given, and taking into to consideration the initial pass, I will double. This hand is a sub-minimum for this bid, but there you go, this is why I lose so often. :-(

Ben

[Chamaco]

inquiry, on Aug 6 2004, 12:57 PM, said:

I don't like it. I am light for it, but under the conditions given, and taking into to consideration the initial pass, I will double. This hand is a sub-minimum for this bid,

I think that this hand may qualify for a minimum double.

All points are useful, and despite only 8 hcp, the hands is invitational from all other viewpoints:

LTC = 8 losers
ZAR points = 22 zar points.

The only serious risk is that both ZAR and LTC do not account really for defensive strength and if pard leaves the double in, 3H doubled may actually make (especially if we have a diamond fit).

[inquiry]

Chamaco, on Aug 6 2004, 09:18 AM, said:

inquiry, on Aug 6 2004, 12:57 PM, said:

I don't like it. I am light for it, but under the conditions given, and taking into to consideration the initial pass, I will double. This hand is a sub-minimum for this bid,

I think that this hand may qualify for a minimum double.

All points are useful, and despite only 8 hcp, the hands is invitational from all other viewpoints:

LTC = 8 losers
ZAR points = 22 zar points.

The only serious risk is that both ZAR and LTC do not account really for defensive strength and if pard leaves the double in, 3H doubled may actually make (especially if we have a diamond fit).

I think you have to sort of detract something for not having a club fit using ZAR count. So while it starts life as 22 zar count... until your partner support your suit and after your partner has opened 1♣, you hand is a little light of 22. How many Zar point would your hand be worth if the bidding went...

(P) - 1C - (3H) -DVL
(P) - 4C

Is it still 22? Of course not. And it is not 22 if partner bids 3NT either. I would subtract at least two zar points from 22, and may be worse. Why? Imagine defensive stregth the opponents hold (like queens) outside of hearts. Where are they most likey to be given the bidding? Sure, behind your KJ's. This hand is a death trap for the freewheeling takeout double. Yes, that was my choice, but only under the very restricted condition of contest given and after LHO had passed originally... and even then, I am worried about it.. Most likely result after this double is 4♠ by partner down one or two.

Ben

[EricK]

We will only get to 4♠ after the double if partner bids it himself. I am certainly not going to bid it for him.

If partner has a jump to 4♠, then I think 4♠ making is at least as likely as 4♠ down 2.

At this vulnerability and position, people will jump to 3H on almost any old rubbish (I know you would, and so would I!). I think that swings the odds in favour of doubling, because there is also the (slight) possibility of 3HX -2 against a part score.

Eric

[inquiry]

EricK, on Aug 6 2004, 11:49 AM, said:

We will only get to 4♠ after the double if partner bids it himself. I am certainly not going to bid it for him.

If partner has a jump to 4♠, then I think 4♠ making is at least as likely as 4♠ down 2.

At this vulnerability and position, people will jump to 3H on almost any old rubbish (I know you would, and so would I!). I think that swings the odds in favour of doubling, because there is also the (slight) possibility of 3HX -2 against a part score.

Eric

Well.. you certainly know I will bid 3♥ here on nothing.... :-)

And remember, I did choose to double with this hand, despite my comments in the most recent reply. However, we are vulnerable, and after a negative double wtih this hand, it is very difficult to construct a hand partner will hold that contains four spades in which he will restrain himself and bid only 3S. After all, he is looking at the vulnerabilyt too. If he does rebid 3♠ for SURE that is as high as we go. However, I bet that 8 out of 10 times he bids 3S on this auction at imps, he is biddign a three card suit.

Ben

[pclayton]

My four 6's and four 8's arent enough for me to find a call. Doubleton heart and dub in partner's suit are big red flags. Any intermediate honors in hearts across the table are pretty much worthless.

As for the ZAR evaluation, pard (bless him) who also uses ZAR, is now opening some of the lighter hands that, perhaps, would not have been opened prior to our collective enlightenment.

Playing a strong club, my call is a LOT easier. Pard is maxed out at 15, so game is unlikely, unless he has a purish hand with the A or shortish hearts.

Playing standard, its more likely that pard can find a reopening double, whereby I now have an easy 4♠ call. I think this is a minimum negative double over a 2♥ overcall, much less 3.

[whereagles]

I pass here. If pard can't reopen this, it's probably their hand anyway.

[paulhar]

Considering that likely things you might hear from partner if you double include: pass, 3NT, 4C, 5C, I feel I must pass. On a lot of the hands we can make 4S, partner reopens. If we can make 3S, congratulate preemptor on a great bid.

[Trpltrbl]

Pass, empty suits and balanced hand.
Pd will reopen if he can.
Bridge is a bidders game, but seems most forget that pass is a bid too

Mike

[EricK]

Trpltrbl, on Aug 8 2004, 03:45 AM, said:

Pass, empty suits and balanced hand.
Pd will reopen if he can.
Bridge is a bidders game, but seems most forget that pass is a bid too

Mike

It is a pity that RHO forgot that he was allowed to Pass

Eric

[mishovnbg]

Pass, 4♠ if reopen dbl...
Misho

[Cascade]

Pass

I need a much better hand to force partner to 3NT or the 4-level.