[Chamaco]

Hi all!!

Scoring: IMP

(1♣)-1♠-pass-?

---

This post is on hand evaluatioon using fitshowing jumps and Robson/Segal scheme.
I know there are many other overcalling/responding schemes, but I would like to focus on this one in this post, Thanks !!

Pard made an overcall.
As advancer, I have more ore less 4 choices:

- 3♦= fitshowing jump (FSJ) raise to 3 spades. This raise shows less than invitational values, either a mixed or preeemptive raise, with values concentrated in the 2 suits

- 4♦= FSJ to 4 spades. This raise commits to game, either on power, distribution or preempt, with values concentrated in the 2 suits

- 2NT= this shows a limit+ hand with 4+ trumps, high ODR.

- 3 clubs = a jump cue shows a mixed raise (9 losers) with sparse values

At the table, feeling "excited" to try the new FSJ feature, I bid 4 diamonds, leading to 4 spades doubled, which made with luck and help from opps.
With hindsight I am trying to reconsider te hand to see what would be a better call:

in my view the hand is too strong for a 3 diamonds FSJ, since it has 7.5 losers, so it is too strong for any call that promises only a mixed raise.
I would still bid 4 diamonds opposite an opening hand (e.g. if using fit showing raise when my pard opens 1 spades and opps overcall), but admittedly, since pard made only an overcall and may have well have more than 7 losers, my 7.5 losers hand (maybe 8 losers, since the finesse to the H king is bound to fail) may not be enough to force game.

That leaves 2NT: if I bid 2NT, I promiuse more or less 10+ hcp with 4 trumps, invitational values (8 losers).
Here I have only 9 hcp but still the hand should be evaluated as invitational opposite a full opener.
Bidding 2Nt also avoids another flaw in bidding a FSJ here: a FSJ tends to promise values concentrated in thge 2 suits, with little wasted outside.
Here, I have AQ stiff in hearts, 70% of my hcp, outside of my 2 suits !
So, sitting calmly at my desk, out of the heat of the batle, I would say that 2NT is probably the most reasonable bid.

Comments from people using Robson/Segal scheme ?

[whereagles]

Call me conservative if you will, but I wouldn't show a fit-raise with that suit. While I'm not a purist who always demands a fit suit headed by the ace or king, I think this particular hand and situation do not justify a fit-bid on an open side suit.

With the above in mind, I think I'd bid a 2NT. Although a mixed raise is a good alternative if pard is a light bidder.

[mishovnbg]

whereagles, on Aug 23 2004, 02:41 PM, said:

Call me conservative if you will, but I wouldn't show a fit-raise with that suit. While I'm not a purist who always demands a fit suit headed by the ace or king, I think this particular hand and situation do not justify a fit-bid on an open side suit.

With the above in mind, I think I'd bid a 2NT. Although a mixed raise is a good alternative if pard is a light bidder.

I agree. Despite lot of people will bid 3♦ (not 4 - it is too high) I never bid such suit without A/K.
Misho

[daswallow]

I wouldn't use a fit jump on this suit either.
I don't think having such a wide range of suit quality for a fit jump helps partner to make the right decisions.
I'm not really happy with any of the bidding options, but would probably go for 2NT here as this is a pretty decent spade raise.

[inquiry]

Chamaco, on Aug 23 2004, 07:17 AM, said:

Hi all!! 

Scoring: IMP

(1♣)-1♠-pass-?

---

I'm back. Sweden is so beautiful, and everyone was so helpful.

Now to this hand... I go with a completely different choice. I like my partners to overcall freely, so I am not going to force to the three level with a fit jump, a mixed raise or 2NT. But my hand is too good for a tame 2♠. So I am going to bid 2♣ to show t his hand. It seems like the perfect solution for this hand.

As to fit jump with or without the ACE/KING. I like to fit jump with suits with intermediate honors like this diamond suit has. I prefer to have a high one too, but I would not rule out 3♦ on the requirement that it has no top honor. Now for a fit jump to the four level (which would be game forcing), rather than to the three level, I would almost surely have Ace or King plus some middel honor.

Ben

[Chamaco]

Quote

I'm back. Sweden is so beautiful, and everyone was so helpful.

Welcome back Ben !!
Next time nudge it down to Italy !!

Quote

I like my partners to overcall freely, so I am not going to force to the three level with a fit jump, a mixed raise or 2NT.

Are we not "LOTT-protected" ?

[Free]

If you play trf advances, you have an easy choice: 2♣ (showing 5+♦), followed by 3♠ (showing 4♠ and invitational values)...

[inquiry]

Chamaco, on Aug 23 2004, 11:41 AM, said:

Quote

I'm back. Sweden is so beautiful, and everyone was so helpful.

Welcome back Ben !!
Next time nudge it down to Italy !!

Quote

I like my partners to overcall freely, so I am not going to force to the three level with a fit jump, a mixed raise or 2NT.

Are we not "LOTT-protected" ?

You are lott protected... But your partner may rightfully play you for considerably more power than this is you force to the three level. You hold the master suit and you might try 3♠ later if pushed, after all, the bidding is not over... and which would you prefer to hear 4♠ over holding such a light hand, after you 3C, 2NT, or 3D bid or after your 2C bid? Game will be laydown in the latter case, in the earlier ones, you will be thinking, did I stretch too much? One thing for sure, if the bidding goes 2C by you and 2S by partner, you are high enough and will not bid again if the opponents cooperate and pass.

So, while I don't mind playing 3♠ with four card support, I want to stay out of 4♠ when it has no chance. Which is the key to 2♣ here. Also, as a final aside, you may start playing with partners who will rudely overcall on four card majors, especially when a strong four card suit.

Ben

[mishovnbg]

Free, on Aug 23 2004, 05:45 PM, said:

If you play trf advances, you have an easy choice: 2♣ (showing 5+♦), followed by 3♠ (showing 4♠ and invitational values)...

Thank you for your furst participation in this area of Ben&Misho duet
Misho

[inquiry]

Free, on Aug 23 2004, 11:45 AM, said:

If you play trf advances, you have an easy choice: 2♣ (showing 5+♦), followed by 3♠ (showing 4♠ and invitational values)...

I prefer the immediate 3♦ bid to show the hand you are describing with the transfer advance and then jump raise. Your cute transfer advance followed by 3♠ can be upset by a an immediate 4♣ rebid by opener. Now you are put to the last quess. At least with my 2♣ cue-bid I am showing ♠ support and a good raise to the two level or better. My fourth spade will be a happy surprise I suspect. but at least if it goes 4♣ partner will know my approxiamate strength and support.

Transfer advance and raise to the two level on the other hand is a very effective weapon. The transfer suggest a suit partner might consider leading rather than the suit you end up raising. Very useful in setting up defense for compteitive part-score hands. So if you had planned on showing diamnods and then bidding 2♠ (warning, don't lead spades).. then bravo. Of course, this isn't robson/segal as requested.

Ben

[Free]

mishovnbg, on Aug 23 2004, 05:38 PM, said:

Free, on Aug 23 2004, 05:45 PM, said:

If you play trf advances, you have an easy choice: 2♣ (showing 5+♦), followed by 3♠ (showing 4♠ and invitational values)...

Thank you for your furst participation in this area of Ben&Misho duet
Misho

Lol, I'm still a newby in that area I only use transfers for bids between the opening suit and the overcall suit... It depends on the bid suits weither we can use them or not... After 1♣-1♠ we have all suits in trf (except ♣), while after 1♥-1♠ we only have the 1♥ bid available. However, it's simple, and it doesn't give away any bids.