[inquiry]

Auction one...

P-P-1♥-X;
2N-3D-P

(sorry Free... 2NT was "jordon" showing heart fit and "useful raise or better")

Auction two...

1♥-(pass)-3♥-(3♠)
4♣

Here 3 hearts is normal limit raise... not preemptive. The question answers refer to the bid in red (pass by opener in auction one, four clubs by opener in auction two).

Ben

[Free]

1) Since I consider 2NT as inv with ♥, I'd say it's weak, but still F1. Choose between Dbl and 3♥. With a very weak opening, I open 2♥ in 3rd seat anyway...

2) 4♣ has to be slam try, what else can it be? Question is if it's showing a length, asking help, or showing control... I'd rather use it as control.

[paulhar]

Free, on Aug 25 2004, 09:08 AM, said:

4♣ has to be slam try, what else can it be?

This auction is likely to get competitive. 4C helps partner decide whether to compete over 4S or not. You show a side club suit with some strength in clubs.


Suppose the auction goes:
1H P 3H 3S
4C 4S ?

Partner holds: A5, Q964, 873, KJ92 - clear to compete to 5H with the club fit

Partner holds: A5, Q964, KJ92, 873 - clear to double and lead trump - you have the diamonds and partner has good clubs. Where are their tricks coming from?



On Hand 1: If it were very likely that partner would compete to 3H (say 2NT showed 4, which I don't think anybody plays), then 3H would be the weakest response and pass would give partner the opportunity to double. But here, it could easily be the opponents' hand and partner will sell to 3D a reasonable amount of the time (usually when holding only 3 trump and at least 2 diamonds.)

[EricK]

Since 2NT forces us to 3H, Pass is forcing, double is penalty-ish and 3H is weakest action.

4C is primarily helping partner decide what to do if opps bid 4S i.e. a FNJ

Eric

[pclayton]

I know the arguments about 2N creating a force through 3♥, but I don't buy into it...yet.

Pass just shows a 3rd hand dog; pard - do whatever you want.

In tne 2nd example; 4♣ isn't a cue bid, but it is a slam try. BWS defines it as an 'interest bid' (it may not be spelled out, but is has been the subject of past MSC problems). Example would be: x, AKxxx, Kx, KJxxx.

[jtfanclub]

inquiry, on Aug 25 2004, 08:45 AM, said:

Auction one...

P-P-1♥-X;
2N-3D-P

(sorry Free... 2NT was "jordon" showing heart fit and "useful raise or better")

Auction two...

1♥-(pass)-3♥-(3♠)
4♣

Here 3 hearts is normal limit raise... not preemptive. The question answers refer to the bid in red (pass by opener in auction one, four clubs by opener in auction two).

Ben

I call the 4C bid a 'freak distribution' bid, and it serves both purposes.

My mentor just did that to me yesterday:

♠ K
♥AJT9765
♦
♣ K7654

I switched the majors to fit your bidding, but otherwise just like this.

Was it telling me what I needed to know to compete over 4♠? Yup. Was it also an attempt to find slam if I had, say,

♥ xxx
♠ Kxx
♦ xxxx
♣ AQx

You'd better believe it. So why does it have to be one or the other?

[whereagles]

Agree with EricK. Those are the most sensible meanings for me.

[luke warm]

i agree with free and phil... pass to me says "i opened weakish in 3rd, but not so weak that i forgot i could bid 2H"... to me the 4C bid is a slam try... 4C bidder is on lead against spades, so does no good as lead directing bid.. can possibly be a 2nd suit, but i don't like it here (seems to give away too much info, since it might help opps as much as partner)

[inquiry]

In my opinion, whereagles got this one correct, because EricK's answers are dead on correct.

Sure, you COULD play some other combination of meanings... but EricK's is the BEST (read the way I play it) way. If anyone wants to know why this is the best way, we could discuss it... but let's just say, competitive bidding is different from non-competitive... if the opponents hadn't bid 3♠, then 4♣ would be a slam try. In modern high level bridge, the meaning is different now. Even if you don't play it this way, you should become familiar with it, so you will understand what it is when erick, misho, me, and yes, whereagle use it to destroy you at the table...

[pclayton]

inquiry, on Aug 25 2004, 04:11 PM, said:

In my opinion, whereagles got this one correct, because EricK's answers are dead on correct.

Sure, you COULD play some other combination of meanings... but EricK's is the BEST (read the way I play it) way. If anyone wants to know why this is the best way, we could discuss it... but let's just say, competitive bidding is different from non-competitive... if the opponents hadn't bid 3♠, then 4♣ would be a slam try. In modern high level bridge, the meaning is different now. Even if you don't play it this way, you should become familiar with it, so you will understand what it is when erick, misho, me, and yes, whereagle use it to destroy you at the table...

I don't know that 4♣ as a slam try and 4♣ to help pard out at the 5 level are mutually exclusive. Certainly if pard has a super fit, if not bid 6 automatically, at least take the push. If pard has an OK fit with the 2nd suit; he'll push to 5.

As far as the 1st example, I'm just not sold, and I'm not buying into the hype. I think this auction is radically different from a 1st, 2nd or 4th seat opener. Say I open 3rd seat on my usual trash: xx, AQxx, Axxx, xxx (this may be generous). Why do I have to get crucified at the 3 level opposite a passed pard?

Willing to listen but verrrrryyy sceptical.

[inquiry]

pclayton, on Aug 25 2004, 08:31 PM, said:

Willing to listen but verrrrryyy sceptical.

I will try to explain this to you then, so you can join the modern world. :-)

First the theory, which I know you understand. It goes like this, when your partner bids 2NT, he is committing your side to 3♥ (no doubt based on LOTT). Since you are forced to 3♥, PFA applies (PFA = principle of fast arrival). Over 3♦, opener can express uncertainty about going to four or sticking in 3♥ by passing. He can express let's stop in exactly three hearts by bidding it.

This is more useful on way more hands (and on more important hands..those you might make game) than the hands where, you override your partners initial decision to go to at least 3♥ and pass it out in 3♦ (stopping on a dime). Add an extra little bit of knowledge here, over the double, if responder had any qualms about getting too high opposite a third seat opening bid, he could use drury (if you use 2♣ as drury over dbl), or my choice, 2♦ transfer to 2♥ showing good values for raise.

So here you go.. if you use pass to invite game, over 3♦ you can....
Pass --> invite 4♥
DBL --> optional
3♥ --> to play

If not, pass is we can let them play 3♦, then your options are...
Pass --> maybe let them play 3♦
DBL --> either maximal dbl invite game or optional penalty but not both
3♥ --> not sure. signoff? invite? what was double? if dbl was maximal, what is difference between 3♥ and pass?

Anyway. There is the theory, for that one. Maybe we can next dissuss why 4♣ is not a slam try, and the meaning of doubles of 4♠ by the partner of the 4♣ bidder versus a pass by the 4♣ bidder.

Ben

[inquiry]

Now to the auction with the 4♣ bid. Your side has at least half the points. So the question will become what to do over a potential 4♠ save. This is more important than using 4♣ as a slam try. Now, I agree that 4♣ could, in fact be a slam try, in which case opener will have to bid again when partner bids 4♥. This would be a very exceptional use here. More likely by far is that it is to help set up defense and to help with judgement on what to do over possible 4♠ bid.

Based upon a sound theory, the 4♣ bid here suggest a singleton spade. If the four club bidder doubles 4♠, he would show that he did not have a singleton. After suggesting a singleton, if partner doubles 4♠, he shows real spade values, while a pass would be forcing and suggest uncertaintly. Perhpas this doesn't make much sense, but we can explore these high level decisions in more detail if anyone really cares.

Ben

[whereagles]

pclayton, on Aug 26 2004, 01:31 AM, said:

In my opinion, whereagles got this one correct

Let's get one thing straight.. whereagles gets everything right, all the time <--- sarcastic smilie

[Fluffy]

whereagles, on Aug 26 2004, 08:09 AM, said:

pclayton, on Aug 26 2004, 01:31 AM, said:

In my opinion, whereagles got this one correct

Let's get one thing straight.. whereagles gets everything right, all the time <--- sarcastic smilie

That´s why I always agree with you

BTW I don´t understand that jordon thing, wich means useful raise? 8+ ? how many cards? If it has a wide range then pass should be reinviting, while if it hasn´t pass should be just balanced, either weak or strong.