[AndreSteff]

---

Teams.
1NT: alerted
dbl: opening values
rdbl: alerted: asks partner to bid 2♣.

Before the match starts EW duly alert that they play a 9-13 1NT in first and second seat while non-vulnerable.
However, on the twelfth board West alerts the third hand 1NT opening. South assumes a weak NT and does not ask.
NS play a different defence against strong NT than against a weak NT: Against a strong NT they play DONT. The double now merely shows values.
Before the play starts East explains that his NT was strong and that his partner should not have alerted. No one calls for the TD at that time.

The play:
4th highest diamond for the Ten and Queen. East returns a diamond, after which South clears the diamonds by playing Ace, King and a small one. On the ♦K North plays the ♣2, a possible signal for hearts (they play that an odd discard is a strong positive signal, an even card is a weak Lavinthal preference). After South fails to continue spades 3NT is made.

After the play the TD is summoned. NS state that they might have found their spade fit with the correct explanation (a direct 2♦ over a strong 1NT shows 54 diamonds and a major) after which it is unlikely that EW will play 3NT and if they do, that NS will have a better chance of beating 3NT.

The TD asks after EW's methods: West would have passed the first time after a 2♦ internvention because bidding on the three level would show a stronger hand. She might have bid 3♣ after a projected auction of 1NT-2♦-pass-2♥-pass-2♠-???

How should the TD rule?
If you want to know; the result on the other table was 3♣=

[RMB1]

AndreSteff, on 2010-December-09, 12:57, said:

Before the match starts EW duly alert that they play a 9-13 1NT in first and second seat while non-vulnerable.
However, on the twelfth board West alerts the third hand 1NT opening. South assumes a weak NT and does not ask.

What are the rules about alerting an opening 1NT?

[AndreSteff]

RMB1, on 2010-December-09, 13:59, said:

What are the rules about alerting an opening 1NT?

Any 1NT opening that can contain less than 14 points must be alerted. There are no fixed rules for pre-alerts at this moment, but warning about the different strengths according to vulnerability and position is certainly recommended as nearly everybod plays a fixed 15-17 or 14-16 NT.

[mycroft]

Assumption: 15-17 NT is not Alertable. This causes problems; this is one of them.

Issues: What did *North* assume from the Alert? If they both thought that it was 9-13, and bid with that agreement, at least that is one less thing to worry about.

Their strong agreement was DONT, but also guarantees 5 in the lower suit? Okay.

With the right "explanation", South will bid 2D, and will lead the SJ (S10 if playing coded 10s and 9s) into 3NT. -2. Would E-W get there? Well, I have issues with that, too.

West makes a "bail" XX (do they play runout redoubles over a strong NT, as well? If not, what's going on there?) and raises to 3C. Now, East has UI from the Alert, that implies that West thinks that his NT is weak. If that is the case, West could have a *lot* better hand for his bidding than if he knew that opener was 15-17. 3NT is not "obvious" with AKx (although it's very likely to come home on the kind of unlucky-guess defence as they got at the table), especially with a minimum and a wide open suit. I would vote for disallowing 3NT, considering pass an LA not suggested by the UI. 3C is an automake, +110.

Ignoring that, the auction is said to would go 1NT-2D!-p-2H!; p-2S. West probably bids clubs, but that almost certainly bring on 3S. I don't see 3S making any more than 8 tricks, and I don't see East pushing to 4C (without using the same UI that got them to 3NT). -100 is the same as -110 at this scoring, so I'm not going to worry about 3S-1 or -2. (If West passes, they play 2S, and maybe that is +110, but I doubt that). If East-West bids 3NT, the spade lead is much more likely (see above). Would East bid 3NT? 4C? Would North double 3NT "lead spades"? Would East or West pull that to 4C? Would that get doubled?

The TD didn't get called to the table by either side on the reveal of the misinformation, even though that is the "classic" time to do it, East knows that he is supposed to and that even though nobody does, this is a time to follow the Laws (how many people play different defences to 9-13 vs 15-17 NTs? Lots). South knows that his bidding would be totally different, but wants to wait until after the play to see if it's worth calling the TD? Time for an education in Laws 9-11, dearies.

Finally, is the defence egregious enough to warrant "serious error" status? I certainly don't think so. North has no way of knowing that a spade lead is right, and South's line of trying to set up diamonds is reasonable (East could easily be Qxx instead of Q9xx).

Are weighted adjusted scores allowed? If so, expect a weighting of several contracts.

Lots of questions, no answers. I'm guessing, however, that -600 N/S isn't going to be very prominent.

[bluejak]

While alerting a non-alertable call is certainly MI, it is a very minor form of MI since all an alert really says is that there is something worth asking. Now N/S play a different defence and did not bother to find out what the alert meant? What defence do they play to a 13-17 1NT, also alertable if I understand correctly?

I find it difficult to believe that the score on the board was a consequence of the alert: it seems to be a consequence of various unjustified assumptions by N/S.

[AndreSteff]

bluejak, on 2010-December-09, 20:16, said:

While alerting a non-alertable call is certainly MI, it is a very minor form of MI since all an alert really says is that there is something worth asking. Now N/S play a different defence and did not bother to find out what the alert meant? What defence do they play to a 13-17 1NT, also alertable if I understand correctly?

I find it difficult to believe that the score on the board was a consequence of the alert: it seems to be a consequence of various unjustified assumptions by N/S.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. EW play a non alertable 15-17 NT, except in 1st and 2nd seat non vulnerable, then they play the alertable 9-13 variant. In Holland an alert on a 1NT opening will 95% of the times be due to the weak variant (anything between 9-14 HCP). While I agree that South should have asked, I cannot hold it against him that he forgot that the "weak" NT was reserved for 1st and 2nd seat only, when West obviously did so too!

[mgoetze]

This is also potentially a UI case - thanks to the alert, East knows that West thought his 1NT is weak, and the UI suggests bidding 3NT rather than passing 3♣.

[bluejak]

AndreSteff, on 2010-December-10, 01:02, said:

Sorry for the misunderstanding. EW play a non alertable 15-17 NT, except in 1st and 2nd seat non vulnerable, then they play the alertable 9-13 variant. In Holland an alert on a 1NT opening will 95% of the times be due to the weak variant (anything between 9-14 HCP). While I agree that South should have asked, I cannot hold it against him that he forgot that the "weak" NT was reserved for 1st and 2nd seat only, when West obviously did so too!

Just to check: when I play in the Netherlands in Alkmaar on 23rd January, I shall be playing a 9-12 1NT, a 12-14 1NT and a 14-17 1NT in different positions. I understand 9-12 and 12-14 are alertable, but 14-17 is not? 13-16 would be, however? Perhaps we should try that!

[joostb1]

bluejak, on 2010-December-11, 10:36, said:

Just to check: when I play in the Netherlands in Alkmaar on 23rd January, I shall be playing a 9-12 1NT, a 12-14 1NT and a 14-17 1NT in different positions. I understand 9-12 and 12-14 are alertable, but 14-17 is not? 13-16 would be, however? Perhaps we should try that!

Prealerts are required when you play thus, if only because your opponents should have a chance to discuss their defense. I would recommend to alert all your 1NT opening bids.
The alerting rules in Holland are quite simple to explain, but sometimes hard to apply. You should alert any conventional bid up till 3NT and each bid which might confuse your opponents. In Holland a 15-17 1NT is standard, so anything else is alertable. The need to alert is dependent on the quality of your opponents. Experienced strong players are of course less easily confused.

[bluejak]

It really is an eye-opener, playing in different jurisdictions. Will opponents not look at our System Card at the start of a round?

Not to worry: we shall muddle along. Having just played in the ACBL without a single complaint about our alerting no doubt we shall survive. We are looking forward to the tournament. Will anyone who posts here be there?

[joostb1]

bluejak, on 2010-December-12, 08:02, said:

It really is an eye-opener, playing in different jurisdictions. Will opponents not look at our System Card at the start of a round?

Not to worry: we shall muddle along. Having just played in the ACBL without a single complaint about our alerting no doubt we shall survive. We are looking forward to the tournament. Will anyone who posts here be there?

Supposing you play in the strongest line, most certainly will. You will meet some of the best Dutch players, but probably also some not so strong ones. Hope you enjoy this tournament and the (cheese) city where it is held. I'm not playing, but I would have appreciated meeting you. I've read so many of your outpourings over the years that it's strange to realise that I can't put a face to your name.

[AndreSteff]

joostb1, on 2010-December-12, 07:08, said:

Prealerts are required when you play thus, if only because your opponents should have a chance to discuss their defense. I would recommend to alert all your 1NT opening bids.
The alerting rules in Holland are quite simple to explain, but sometimes hard to apply. You should alert any conventional bid up till 3NT and each bid which might confuse your opponents. In Holland a 15-17 1NT is standard, so anything else is alertable. The need to alert is dependent on the quality of your opponents. Experienced strong players are of course less easily confused.

I recommend a pre-alert for this trio of NT openings, but do not alert the 15-17 range during the auction to avoid the confusion that arose in my OP. 13-16 certainly is alertable as it can be weaker than 14HCP's. Best of luck in Alkmaar, usually some pretty strong players contend!

[bluejak]

joostb1, on 2010-December-12, 14:42, said:

I've read so many of your outpourings over the years that it's strange to realise that I can't put a face to your name.

This got me thinking: where have the pictures gone from the profiles, including mine?

[mgoetze]

bluejak, on 2010-December-13, 09:17, said:

This got me thinking: where have the pictures gone from the profiles, including mine?

I guess they got lost during the forum upgrade, just upload it again though, the new software supports them too.

[bluejak]

I did not upload mine until after the forum upgrade: they have all disappeared very recently.

[bluejak]

I have uploaded my picture again: it has disappeared again.

[blackshoe]

How big is your picture? How many bytes, how many pixels high and wide?

[bluejak]

Not too big: it will not accept it if it is too big.

Anyway, it has reappeared.

[blackshoe]

Gremlins.