[Antraxxx]

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[the hog]

Antraxxx, on 2011-January-02, 00:47, said:

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Is this a trick question? 1NT.

[Antraxxx]

It's not a trick question. Maybe I should continue prefacing my posts with "I am a beginner" as we don't get to self-rate here.
I am asking because while I know 1NT doesn't promise a balanced hand and does give a correct point range, it has the disadvantage of possibly landing us in a 1NT contract, which I thought was likely to go down.

[l milne]

Antraxxx, on 2011-January-02, 02:04, said:

It's not a trick question. Maybe I should continue prefacing my posts with "I am a beginner" as we don't get to self-rate here.
I am asking because while I know 1NT doesn't promise a balanced hand and does give a correct point range, it has the disadvantage of possibly landing us in a 1NT contract, which I thought was likely to go down.

Your partner isn't going to pass 1NT when you have a 6-5 with a void in his suit. If he does, the opponents won't. If they do too, it might be the right spot.

1NT is more of a denial bid, making some noise without showing the values for a 2/1. It barely even suggests 1NT as a contract. If the alternatives in your mind are making some encouraging noise when you have a hopeless hand for partner, you better rethink that!

[Antraxxx]

Thank you. Some followups:
1) Can 1NT really be the right spot? Assuming he doesn't have okay clubs, my hand is practically non-existent for 1NT, no?
2) Based on your answer, I think I may be misplaying as declarer. When I open a hand in the 12-14 range and hear a 1NT reply, I tend to leave it alone if I don't think my hand is really suitable for a suit contract. So for instance with something like 5 spades, 4 hearts and 2-2 in the minors I would pass after 1S-1NT. I'm guessing now this is wrong, so when do I strain to show other suits (or repeat a 6+ carder) and how much? Or in another way, what does my hand need to look like to pass a 1NT response, taking into account partner may be weak and very imbalanced?

[nigel_k]

Antraxxx, on 2011-January-02, 02:04, said:

It's not a trick question. Maybe I should continue prefacing my posts with "I am a beginner" as we don't get to self-rate here.
I am asking because while I know 1NT doesn't promise a balanced hand and does give a correct point range, it has the disadvantage of possibly landing us in a 1NT contract, which I thought was likely to go down.

You should be able to ask a question in beginner/intermediate without getting a sarcastic answer.

You cannot respond 2♥ because you have no rebid if parter bids 2♠. 3♣ would then be forcing and far too much on a misfit. So your choices are to respond 2♣ and rebid 3♣, or to respond 1NT and probably bid 3♣ next if partner bids. Either way you are in 3♣ but the first one overstates your values and partner will quite often convert to 3NT or some other action that gets you too high. Sure, there will be some hands where the bidding ends in 1NT and 3♣ is better and you could have stopped there. But not enough to make up for the hands where you will get too high on a misfit if you start with 2♣.

[the hog]

nigel_k, on 2011-January-02, 04:34, said:

You should be able to ask a question in beginner/intermediate without getting a sarcastic answer.

You cannot respond 2♥ because you have no rebid if parter bids 2♠. 3♣ would then be forcing and far too much on a misfit. So your choices are to respond 2♣ and rebid 3♣, or to respond 1NT and probably bid 3♣ next if partner bids. Either way you are in 3♣ but the first one overstates your values and partner will quite often convert to 3NT or some other action that gets you too high. Sure, there will be some hands where the bidding ends in 1NT and 3♣ is better and you could have stopped there. But not enough to make up for the hands where you will get too high on a misfit if you start with 2♣.

It wasn't a sarcastic answer and nigel k is foolish to take it so. There is NO other bid you can make apart from 1NT. You simply lack the values to bid a 2/1 and you have to respond something, ergo 1NT. Who knows, partner may have hearts and bid them next.

[mgoetze]

I've seen this mistake even from players who are definitely not beginners. A 2/1 response (in any modern standardish bidding system) absolutely must show a minimum not only of playing strength, but also HCP. Bidding 2/1 on 7 HCP is not a small lie, it is a gross misrepresentation of your hand's strength.

[Antraxxx]

Okay, thanks. Out of curiosity, would you expect 1NT to make if it ended up being the final contract?

[pooltuna]

Antraxxx, on 2011-January-02, 06:52, said:

Okay, thanks. Out of curiosity, would you expect 1NT to make if it ended up being the final contract?

Yes it makes more often than you appear to expect.

[FrancesHinden]

As others have pointed out, responding 1NT to 1S doesn't really show any desire to play in 1NT, it just says that you have enough to respond (traditionally 6+ HCP though most people have shaded that downwards now) and not enough to make a response at the 2-level. So as opener, if you have a distributional hand and a minimum, you still shouldn't pass the 1NT response. If you have five spades and a second 4+-card suit, you should usually bid it after partner's 1NT response, no matter if you have a minimum opening. On this hand, even if partner makes what looks like a 'bad' 2D rebid after 1S - 1NT you can now bid 3C, showing a weak hand with long clubs, which is very likely to be the right spot. If you respond 2C, then bid 3C over partner's 2D rebid, you are showing a stronger hand with invitational values, and might get too high.

I don't expect 1NT to be the right contract if it ends the auction, although it's true it might well make (the two aren't the same thing).

By the way, I got the impression (possibly wrongly) in another thread that you are based in the UK. If so, you may find some older players who will respond 2C on this hand. Traditionally English Acol players have needed less to respond at the 2-level than in Standard American (because in Standard American a 2-level response promises another bid, while it doesn't in Acol). You are still a bit too light to bid 2C even in Acol, although it's not far short (change it to a 2=5=0=6 i.e. a doubleton spade rather than diamond and you would find some people responding at the 2-level).

[cherdano]

the hog, on 2011-January-02, 01:59, said:

Is this a trick question? 1NT.

This is the kind of post I had in mind when I argued for allowing negative votes. It has no place in the B/I forum, and with 10 negative votes maybe this poster would get the hint (and whoever is being attacked by him on this particular day might feel less bad about it).

[Fluffy]

1NT over 1 major is a catch all bid, any hand with 6-9 HCP and no support. When you are highly umbalanced balanced it might be wrong to play there, but nothing is perfect.

Keep the 2/1 bids for strong hands, this might not seem very important at the moment, but when you have slam hands you wish your 2/1 bids are better defined.

[VMars]

cherdano, on 2011-January-04, 11:51, said:

This is the kind of post I had in mind when I argued for allowing negative votes. It has no place in the B/I forum, and with 10 negative votes maybe this poster would get the hint (and whoever is being attacked by him on this particular day might feel less bad about it).

I ran out of positive votes, so I have to delurk and say that this post is great.

[mikeh]

VMars, on 2011-January-04, 17:21, said:

I ran out of positive votes, so I have to delurk and say that this post is great.

It's ok...I gave it an up vote for you, because I felt the same way. Altho some of my posts would deserve a down vote too, so I had better be careful what I wish for

[Antraxxx]

Thanks FrancesHinden. For the record, I'm not from the UK, I just prefer the British spelling of some words. I was taught a 2c as responder shows a five-card suit with 11+ HCP, but at the table was worried that maybe 1NT with a 6-5 hand is worse than inventing another ace in my hand, hence the original question.

[mgoetze]

mikeh, on 2011-January-04, 18:16, said:

Altho some of my posts would deserve a down vote too,

I would downvote any post that claims that mikeh deserves downvotes!

Oh, wait...

[the hog]

cherdano, on 2011-January-04, 11:51, said:

This is the kind of post I had in mind when I argued for allowing negative votes. It has no place in the B/I forum, and with 10 negative votes maybe this poster would get the hint (and whoever is being attacked by him on this particular day might feel less bad about it).

And this is precisely the sort of post I argue against made by someone who either does not read all posts or perhaps has a very limited knowledge of the language, I have already stated that my op was not meant as insulting at all, but perhaps this poster can't read properly. Frankly to use the verb "attacked" is idiotic and typical of the nonsense posted by this poster.

[Antraxxx]

Not to start a flame war, but I did sense an insulting tone in your first reply. I generally assume good faith on the part of others, so I assumed it's some culture/language barrier and not that you'd actually go and invest time at insulting a self-professed beginner's bidding skill. The reason I upvoted other posts and not yours is because I'm generally more interested in lengthier answers that include reasoning, as it's easier to learn from them towards future, different cases.

[mgoetze]

the hog, on 2011-January-05, 06:08, said:

perhaps has a very limited knowledge of the language,

As one of the proofreaders of said poster's PhD thesis, I can assure you that only very minor corrections were necessary.

Quote

I have already stated that my op was not meant as insulting at all, but perhaps this poster can't read properly.

...or, perhaps, the point is not how you meant it but rather how it came across.