[straube]

For strong club, what's the best way to cope with 1S interference? I think pretty common is...

P-0-4 or trapping
dbl-5-7
1N-5-7, stopper
other-GF

We've been playing

P-GF with 2+ spades (we can relay after this)
dbl-0-4 or 5-7 balanced
1N-5-7, hearts
2C-5-7, takeout of spades
2D-5-7, diamonds
2H-GF, 5 hearts
2S-5-7, 6 clubs
2N etc. GF transfers

I think our dbl is very overloaded. I'm also not sure that I like 1N as natural 5-7 but maybe that's best.

[straube]

Here's what a local expert pair does...

P-0-7 or trapping
dbl-8+ with 5+ hearts
1N-8-12 balanced with a stopper
2m-8+ natural
2H-8+, 3-suited with short major, relays follow
2S-8+ balanced with usually no spade stopper
higher? Rubensohl?

[akhare]

Seems like one easy improvement is the following:

P GF with 2+ spades
dbl Junk hand
1N NF, Bal, may not have a stopper
2C Limited takeout of ♠
2D ♦s, NF
2H ♥, NF
2S ♣
2N+ GF transfer

Since 2♠ is forcing through at least 2N, it seems possible to put some GF hands with ♣s in it as well and assign some other meaning to a direct 2N...

[lowerline]

This it what Roy Hughes recommends:

pass = weak or lenght in spades
dbl = balanced with or without stopper
1nt = clubs
2♣ = diamonds
2♦ = hearts
2♥ = 3-suited, short in spades
2♠ = minors
2nt = clubs and hearts
3♣ = diamonds and hearts
3♦ = clubs with no spade shortness or stopper
3♥ = clubs with spade shortness
3♠ = AKQxxx or longer in some suit
3nt = all strength in spades


dbl, 1nt, 2♣, 2♦ all show a semi-positive or better

Steven

[Free]

I've always liked Dbl as double negative after any 1-level interference (except 1NT). After 1♠, Dbl shows trash or some GF which are unbiddable, while pass shows a semipositive hand (or trap, but many play 1♠ artificial in which case this is quite useless), all others are GF, jumps are INV.

Pass = around 5-7 / trap
Dbl = around 0-4 / GF 4441♠ / GF no stopper
1NT = GF bal (may be 4441 with stopper)
2X = GF, 5+X (also the 2♠ cuebid)
2NT = unused
3X = INV, good 6+X

Obviously, is the 1♠ overcall is "13 cards", then Dbl is always weak.

[Flameous]

We play simple X is T/O (balancedish), bids are constructive+ transfers. (2NT+ showing good 6+ suit)

[dake50]

"Here's what a local expert pair does...
P-0-7 or trapping
dbl-8+ with 5+ hearts
1N-8-12 balanced with a stopper
2m-8+ natural
2H-8+, 3-suited with short major, relays follow
2S-8+ balanced with usually no spade stopper" -straube

.. Agree except dbl says misfit other major - thus willing for penalties
now or next as no 4M game likely. 3+N maybe, 5+minor maybe.
Later auctions are now clearer.
.. Pass is forcing below 2S - trust there be an acceptable partial.
A 5-7 passed hand must show next if game is possible.

[keylime]

Transfer Leb is what Larry and I use. Pass is either 0-4 or the trap hand. Dbl is negative.

[straube]

I looked at 100 hands that started with 1C. I set LHO to have exactly 5 spades and 6+ pts. I found that a GF with 5 hearts came up only 4 times while a balanced GF (usually excluding a 5m332) with a spade stopper came up 12 times. Hardly scientific, but I'm a little down on using such an important bid as dbl to show a GF in hearts.

[straube]

akhare, on 2011-April-03, 21:09, said:

Seems like one easy improvement is the following:

P GF with 2+ spades
dbl Junk hand
1N NF, Bal, may not have a stopper
2C Limited takeout of ♠
2D ♦s, NF
2H ♥, NF
2S ♣
2N+ GF transfer

Since 2♠ is forcing through at least 2N, it seems possible to put some GF hands with ♣s in it as well and assign some other meaning to a direct 2N...

I looked at random hands for this. On the plus side, it had a fantastic frequency distribution (pass most common, dbl next, NT next). On the downside, the NT was very frequently wrong-sided and it seemed to matter a lot.

I was thinking of...

P-GF with 2+
dbl-junk hand or semipositive balanced
1N-5-7, 4+ hearts, nf but could have longer minor
2C-clubs, f but not gf
2D-diamonds, f but not gf
2H-5-7, 6+ hearts
2S-GF hearts
rubensohl

This would also frequently wrongside NT, but it uncovers many heart fits

[mycroft]

As always with "interference over strong club" discussions, I would suggest that people look at "what if it isn't spades?"

I've seen:
spades
spades or takeout of spades
clubs or takeout of clubs
spades and clubs
spades and either minor
clubs or the reds
I think all of CRO/CRaSh
"13 cards/wants to play somewhere on the 2 level"

off the top of my head. My system is simple, and stupid, but has the benefit of being "on" for almost everything thrown at us (we have a few meta-agreements on "what is the suit", and "if they 'can't' pass, what's the difference between third and seventh hand action", which apply/override, but those are general).

I know I tell people starting to play a strong club that they're learning 3 systems: "when we don't open 1C", "1C and no interference", and "1C and they bid", and that they need to be about the same in complexity; but anything I can do to limit memory overload without sacrificing too much efficiency, I tend to do.

I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here, but those "simulations", at least, looked at "spades only" which is dangerous. Especially when even when they show spades (and another suit), your suit could *be* spades (on a known 4-x break).

[Flameous]

Good point mycroft. We indeed have the exact same system whatever 1♠ means. Obviously if it doesn't promise spades, the T/O double even more suggests a balanced hand. We also have natural transfers to whatever the suits opps might have promised.
Of course it would be optimal to have defense against every defense but that's just not practical.

[akhare]

mycroft, on 2011-April-05, 10:24, said:

As always with "interference over strong club" discussions, I would suggest that people look at "what if it isn't spades?"

This is an excellent point. Basically, a defence (1♠) (or even 1♥ for that matter) *assuming* that they have 5+ cards in the overcalled is sub-optimal at best, because of the imminent possibility of an psyche (in addition to other artificial meanings).

What mechanisms do others use for exposing potential psyches? It almost seems that one would want to have a call to say: "No, I have that suit and they are lying?"

[straube]

mycroft, on 2011-April-05, 10:24, said:

As always with "interference over strong club" discussions, I would suggest that people look at "what if it isn't spades?"

I've seen:
spades
spades or takeout of spades
clubs or takeout of clubs
spades and clubs
spades and either minor
clubs or the reds
I think all of CRO/CRaSh
"13 cards/wants to play somewhere on the 2 level"

off the top of my head. My system is simple, and stupid, but has the benefit of being "on" for almost everything thrown at us (we have a few meta-agreements on "what is the suit", and "if they 'can't' pass, what's the difference between third and seventh hand action", which apply/override, but those are general).

I know I tell people starting to play a strong club that they're learning 3 systems: "when we don't open 1C", "1C and no interference", and "1C and they bid", and that they need to be about the same in complexity; but anything I can do to limit memory overload without sacrificing too much efficiency, I tend to do.

I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here, but those "simulations", at least, looked at "spades only" which is dangerous. Especially when even when they show spades (and another suit), your suit could *be* spades (on a known 4-x break).

How do you hand 1C (1S) ?

[straube]

So far, I think I like something like what Free plays...

P-semipositive or trapping or...
dbl-negative
1N-natural, stopper, forcing
2L-GF
I think I would want to assign meanings to 2S and 2N

[wclass___]

If 1♠ is natural i play..

Pass.. 4♥ ~6+ or trap
X .. 6-8 no 4♥
1N GF with stop
2♣.. weak any
2♦.. 5♥+ INV+
2♥.. no or bad ♠ stop
2♠.. 5♣+ GF
2N ..minors 5-7
3♣ ..5♦+GF
3♦ ..6♥+ST
3♥ 6♦+ST
3♠ 1444 GF

works well

[straube]

wclass___, on 2011-April-07, 08:53, said:

If 1♠ is natural i play..

Pass.. 4♥ ~6+ or trap
X .. 6-8 no 4♥
1N GF with stop
2♣.. weak any
2♦.. 5♥+ INV+
2♥.. no or bad ♠ stop
2♠.. 5♣+ GF
2N ..minors 5-7
3♣ ..5♦+GF
3♦ ..6♥+ST
3♥ 6♦+ST
3♠ 1444 GF

works well

Interesting. I'm a little intrigued with the 2C negative idea. How does that work out for you? I'd also thought to use 1N as a negative but it has obvious severe drawbacks and didn't do well with testing.

[straube]

wclass___, on 2011-April-07, 08:53, said:

If 1♠ is natural i play..

Pass.. 4♥ ~6+ or trap
X .. 6-8 no 4♥
1N GF with stop
2♣.. weak any
2♦.. 5♥+ INV+
2♥.. no or bad ♠ stop
2♠.. 5♣+ GF
2N ..minors 5-7
3♣ ..5♦+GF
3♦ ..6♥+ST
3♥ 6♦+ST
3♠ 1444 GF

works well

I'd really like to know more about this. For example 1C (1S) P P dbl shows what? takeout I presume.

I looked at hands that bid 2C (negative) and was happy to see that the partnership usually landed somewhere safely. Occasionally it was in 4-2 fits, but there were a lot of 4-4 and better fits, too...many of which wouldn't have been found with a standard 1N rebid.

[wclass___]

I should have added that i play precision only 1st/2nd seat Non-Vulnerable... i think i wouldn't play 2♣ as ''weak any'' if vulnerable, although if one play strong NT it might be playable.

I am a firm believer that you should immediately show length of ♥ or lack of it before RHO bids.

[wclass___]

-/-