[bluejak]

Playing a Swiss match of 8 boards. After 2 boards North has an idea and picks up his System card.

"You are not allowed to look at your own card," says West.

"Why not?" says North, "it is between hands."

"Director!".

How do you rule?

[Cyberyeti]

bluejak, on 2011-August-01, 06:53, said:

Playing a Swiss match of 8 boards. After 2 boards North has an idea and picks up his System card.

"You are not allowed to look at your own card," says West.

"Why not?" says North, "it is between hands."

"Director!".

How do you rule?

I tell West to get a life whether it's technically legal or not.

In all seriousness, if it is for some reason illegal, it should not be. Imagine the scenario where the opposing pair are playing multiple artificial systems at different vulnerabilities and positions, to be unable to check your card between boards for defences in the early part of the match would be intolerable.

[barmar]

Or suppose you want to make sure that you've filled in the card correctly. What are you supposed to do, give the card to an opponent and ask them to ensure that it says "Unusual over Unusual" somewhere?

[gordontd]

bluejak, on 2011-August-01, 06:53, said:

Playing a Swiss match of 8 boards. After 2 boards North has an idea and picks up his System card.

"You are not allowed to look at your own card," says West.

"Why not?" says North, "it is between hands."

"Director!".

How do you rule?

Did West say why he thought North wasn't allowed to look?

[bluejak]

Oh yes. But I would just like an opinion or two first then I shall either add to the problem or see it solved.

Cyberyeti, on 2011-August-01, 07:33, said:

I tell West to get a life whether it's technically legal or not.

In all seriousness, if it is for some reason illegal, it should not be. Imagine the scenario where the opposing pair are playing multiple artificial systems at different vulnerabilities and positions, to be unable to check your card between boards for defences in the early part of the match would be intolerable.

I really don’t see the point of answers like this. This is not BLML, this is not Changing Laws & Regulations, and this is not Aunt Agatha’s column on how we should run afternoon tea-party bridge. If it is legal, that’s an end of it. If it is not legal, that is the way a TD should be ruling, and if his solution is to tell the opponents to get a life when they are right it is time he was sacked as a TD. Whether it should be legal is off-topic for this forum.

[blackshoe]

Quote

Law 40B2b: Unless the Regulating Authority provides otherwise, a player may not consult his own system card after the auction period commences until the end of play, except that players of the declaring side (only) may consult their own system card during the clarification period.

If West is simply mistaken, I would expect reading the law to end the problem. If West (or anyone else, for that matter) cops an attitude, I would consider, and probably issue, a DP. I think that would be unlikely, though.

[gordontd]

EBU WB40.9:

Quote

Law 40B2: Consulting system cards [WBFLC]
Subject to any regulations, a player may consult his own system card and other aides mémoire between hands.
[WBFLC minutes 2009-09-08#8]

[bluejak]

Fine, and this is as you would expect. But the player who objected cited Law 20G2.

[blackshoe]

So? First, "between hands" is not "during the auction and play periods", and second, 20G2 refers directly to 40B2.

Quote

20G2: Except as the regulating Authority allows, a player may not consult his own system card and notes during the auction and play periods, but see Law 40B2(b).

[bluejak]

blackshoe, on 2011-August-02, 07:58, said:

So? First, "between hands" is not "during the auction and play periods", and ......

Definitions:

Quote

Play period – commences when the opening lead on a board is faced; contestants’ rights and powers in the play period each expire as the relevant Law provides.
The play period itself ends when the cards are removed from their slots on the subsequent board (or when the last board of a round is quitted).

My Welsh correspondent suggests that between hands is during the play period.

[G_R__E_G]

Ah okay. So I want to consult my convention card. I wait until the end of a hand then I say to the table "Please remove your cards from the next board but don't make any calls, I need to look at my convention card". If there are bridge clubs out there that are so anal about the laws that they'd actaully suggest that this is the way it should work please let me know as I don't want to play in them.

[G_R__E_G]

Hold on - there's an update. I just double checked and according to law 17A the auction period starts when either partner from a side withdraws their cards from the board. So I guess what I suggested above wouldn't be legal either since during a round there is no time between the play period ending and the auction period commencing. Maybe this does belong in the Changing Laws section.

[aguahombre]

bluejak, on 2011-August-02, 08:40, said:

My Welsh correspondent suggests that between hands is during the play period.

It seems that the minutes to which Gordon referred cover the apparent discrepancy. So, even if "between hands" is part of the play period, the SC may be consulted during that time.

The intent of the minutes is clearly to allow the inspection of the card as described in the OP.

[pooltuna]

bluejak, on 2011-August-02, 08:40, said:

Definitions:

My Welsh correspondent suggests that between hands is during the play period.

Well I am not sure what the legal definition is but certainly between playing to the 12th trick and taking cards out of the slots for the next hand is a dead time and should be "between hands" and the play between playing to the 12th trick and prior to taking cards out for the next hand is the "consumption of caviar sandwiches is prohibited time"

[gordontd]

bluejak, on 2011-August-02, 08:40, said:

My Welsh correspondent suggests that between hands is during the play period.

So, what does he suggest is the meaning of the WBF minute?

[bluejak]

He doesn't. He asked for advice, as I am.

[Cyberyeti]

bluejak, on 2011-August-01, 08:56, said:

Oh yes. But I would just like an opinion or two first then I shall either add to the problem or see it solved.




I really don’t see the point of answers like this. This is not BLML, this is not Changing Laws & Regulations, and this is not Aunt Agatha’s column on how we should run afternoon tea-party bridge. If it is legal, that’s an end of it. If it is not legal, that is the way a TD should be ruling, and if his solution is to tell the opponents to get a life when they are right it is time he was sacked as a TD. Whether it should be legal is off-topic for this forum.

The reason I gave an answer like this is what possible damage is there ? Hence even if it's technically an infraction, what is the director going to do about it ? short of possibly telling the offender not to do it again. If directors are not allowed to make common sense interpretations of clumsily worded laws (it appears to me that "play" is used to mean 2 different things in different laws, "play of the cards" in one and "play of the hand, auction->last trick" in the other, and this seems confirmed by the WBF minute) then why bother being a TD.

[nigel_k]

It is simply not true that the literal meaning of words is necessarily the correct meaning. Sometimes we need to apply our logic and common sense to find the meaning that is most consistent, both with the words used and the words not used.

If the rules were intended to prohibit looking at one's own system card at any time during the round, they would say that. The references to auction and play period clearly demonstrate an intention that the player be allowed to look after finishing one hand and before starting the next one. That is the correct ruling.

[ahydra]

I agree with nigel_k. Both common sense and the WB minute cited earlier in this thread point to people being allowed to look at their own CC between hands.

Perhaps an update to the Laws is needed to redefine "play period" as "the period from when the opening lead is turned face up to when the 13th trick of that hand is quitted or a claim has been accepted" (that last bit will almost certainly need rewording due to all the complications one can have with claims not accepted). Is there a reason why the period between the last trick/claim of one hand and the players removing their cards from the next is classified as the play period?

ahydra

[aguahombre]

ahydra, on 2011-August-03, 03:06, said:

Is there a reason why the period between the last trick/claim of one hand and the players removing their cards from the next is classified as the play period?

ahydra

I think it might have something to do with bringing attention to revokes.