[gwnn]

-Vianu2, how many people are playing this 4♣ bid as promising a fit out of the world elite?
-why aren't there any?
-why don't you try to convince them?

[vianu2]

OleBerg, on 2011-August-03, 06:48, said:

No. You tell me. What would you do/have done? Opened 4♣???

Do u mind to spend a little time to read the previous topic??
If no, please don't bother me with this nonsense. Ok??
I OPEN 1♣ AS ANY SANE PLAYER.
1♣-1♥-1♠-3♥-

Now i bid something forcing to show my extras.
That hand is too strong for a simple competitive bid.
4♥
IF I PLAY IT AS A 3 LOSERS MONO SUITED HAND
4♣
IF THAT IS THE MEANING OF 4♣ (3 LOSERS HAND WITH CLUBS).
If our agreement is 4♥ i will pass partner's 5♣ bid
If our agreement is 4♣ and partner bid 4♥ i will end in 5♣.

WHAT ELSE CAN U BID WITH SUCH A GOOD HAND, DO U WANT TO ONLY "COMPETE" WITH IT?
END.

[vianu2]

gwnn, on 2011-August-03, 06:59, said:

-Vianu2, how many people are playing this 4♣ bid as promising a fit out of the world elite?
-why aren't there any?
-why don't you try to convince them?

Gwnn can u try to post somewhere else those rhetorical questions? I suggest to open another thread.

[gwnn]

They were not meant as rhetorical questions, but rather some questions to be replied to. I would be honestly interested in your responses. I don't think I am hijacking, I think these answers would be relevant to this thread. Perhaps I am mistaken.

[vianu2]

gwnn, on 2011-August-03, 07:40, said:

They were not meant as rhetorical questions, but rather some questions to be replied to. I would be honestly interested in your responses. I don't think I am hijacking, I think these answers would be relevant to this thread. Perhaps I am mistaken.

Ok . And how do u know that they are playing differently?
I already said that i ONLY want to reverse the 4♣/4♥ meaning in THAT special case .
Why don't u read what i said before?

And if there are world class players who bid 4♣ in that auction with another hand than any 3loosers hand after reevaluation!... so if they bid 4cl as competitive! i don't care. Go and ask them why.
In an world championship Bochi and his pard gave a 5minor contract because they trusted that their opps are sane (there were 4 losers in that stupid contract!).
Maybe they are protected themselves and then bid with less looking at their opps? Did u think about?

p.s
XXX to Dave

[gwnn]

I don't know anything for sure. I was just asking. My second question was based on my general impressions. I have never heard of a method where the minimum rebid of your own suit in competition is artificial (at least none of them come to mind right now), and I have never seen anyone play anything like that. I don't watch so much vugraph, but on balance of probabilities I would doubt there are. I think it is interesting to know why someone feels so strongly about their own pet method that they are saying that there is absolutely no plausible hand where their pet method wouldn't work as well as the method used by just about everyone in the world elite. That's why I asked, but now I see you are not likely to answer.

I mean there was a time where 0% of the world elite played transfers over 1NT. Still it would not be difficult for me to construct a hand where 2♦ natural would gain over 2♦ transfer. To say that transfers are superior to natural is one thing, but to imply that there are no hands where it natural is superior to transfers is a much stronger proposition and it seems very difficult to defend about any common treatment played right now.

[vianu2]

gwnn, on 2011-August-03, 08:45, said:

I have never heard of a method where the minimum rebid of your own suit in competition is artificial (at least none of them come to mind right now), and I have never seen anyone play anything like that.
I dont understand what u mean. What rebid is artificial???

I think it is interesting to know why someone feels so strongly about their own pet method that they are saying that there is absolutely no plausible hand where their pet method wouldn't work as well as the method used by just about everyone in the world elite.
I think u are in a big confusion and i suggest to review my post .

And if u reviewed the post and that is all u have seen there, that i am suggesting to play any artificial rebid, i am sorry for you.
I am saying that your 4♣ in that auction must not be competitive!!!!!
I am saying that is a waste of time to play it as competitive!!!!!!!!
(Do you know what does it mean...bidding in competition?)
Where did i suggest any artificial bid or whatever???
WOW I GIVE UP I'M TALKING TO THE WALL!!!

[gwnn]

Your 4♣ is artificial because it shows not only a willingness to play clubs, but also a spade fit.

Please, if at all possible, don't use so many exclamation points and caps while posting on bridge base forums. It does not help discussion.

[matmat]

I can't tell whether vianu is trying to nail someone for cheating here or just arguing for some really weird low-percentage treatment. Also, why does it looks lo much like a lurpoa post with all those hearts and all that screaming?

[vianu2]

matmat, on 2011-August-03, 10:13, said:

I can't tell whether vianu is trying to nail someone for cheating here or just arguing for some really weird low-percentage treatment. Also, why does it looks lo much like a lurpoa post with all those hearts and all that screaming?

Take it easy i don't have ANY ♥ for you!

[daveharty]

vianu2, on 2011-August-03, 07:52, said:

p.s
XXX to Dave

Did I just get smooched, or re-redoubled?

[OleBerg]

vianu2, on 2011-August-03, 07:33, said:

Do u mind to spend a little time to read the previous topic??
If no, please don't bother me with this nonsense. Ok??
I OPEN 1♣ AS ANY SANE PLAYER.
1♣-1♥-1♠-3♥-

Now i bid something forcing to show my extras.
That hand is too strong for a simple competitive bid.
4♥
IF I PLAY IT AS A 3 LOSERS MONO SUITED HAND
4♣
IF THAT IS THE MEANING OF 4♣ (3 LOSERS HAND WITH CLUBS).
If our agreement is 4♥ i will pass partner's 5♣ bid
If our agreement is 4♣ and partner bid 4♥ i will end in 5♣.

WHAT ELSE CAN U BID WITH SUCH A GOOD HAND, DO U WANT TO ONLY "COMPETE" WITH IT?
END.

You're tougher to satisfy than my X.

You want me to give you a hand, under certain restrictions, where I'd want to bid 4♣, and where 4♣ is the correct double-dummy bid. I give it to you, and you tell me I cannot bid 4♣.

Tough one.

[vianu2]

OleBerg, on 2011-August-03, 13:41, said:

You're tougher to satisfy than my X.

You want me to give you a hand, under certain restrictions, where I'd want to bid 4♣, and where 4♣ is the correct double-dummy bid. I give it to you, and you tell me I cannot bid 4♣.

Tough one.

I did always enjoyed danish humor
I think in the previous post i answered to your funny question "if i open 3/4♣ with that hand". It is true? Is that what u asked me??
I think i agreed with your "correct double-dummy bid" yes or no?
If i didn't say that (but i doubt)i will say one more time: I agree with your 4♣ bid!!
And now: Are u aware that Your 4♣ bid here is not competitive?

When i started that topic i intended to prove to you the meaningless of a 4♣ competitive bid (i.e. a hand which can be described as "a 3/4 ♣ opening having an extra ace/king" see MrAce ).
Of course if u don't understand that the hand u posted is not a competitive hand and your 4♣ is not a competitive bid , what can i do? Go open a book.

[andy_h]

---

I don't really care for the methods proposed because obviously there are pros and cons to them all. Some people like to play 4m (4C here) as natural forcing (self suiter) to help with their slam investigation thereby either passing or sometimes overbidding (5m) with those competitive hands. Some people just prefer everything natural so 4C is competitive (these hands easily exist) not because they want to stop on the dime of 4C (but still possible) but to get those long clubs non-super hand off their chest with 4C and still have room available if their partner has slam interest (since if you bid 5C with those hands then you will have to guess between pass vs 6C).

I think what the OP is trying to suggest is in the same camp as a "switch" bid where you switch two bids to gain a bit of bidding space. If you play 4m as natural and forcing then you can swap the meanings of 4C and 4H to gain some cue-bidding space when you have the spade fit but lose some accuracy when you have the self-suited clubs. You can shuffle the bids around with say 4C=clubs competitive, 4D=spades, 4H=diamonds which gives a last train available over 4D=spade fit or if you want to incorporate self clubs at the cost of diamond-club two suiter then you can go 4C=clubs competitive, 4D=spades, 4H=clubs, 4NT=diamonds etc etc, but whatever you choose most likely you will have to give up something.

[OleBerg]

vianu2, on 2011-August-02, 09:58, said:

... Now is your turn and u want to make a competitive bid 4♣...

vianu2, on 2011-August-03, 19:50, said:

...And now: Are u aware that Your 4♣ bid here is not competitive?...

[MrAce]

andy_h, on 2011-August-03, 21:19, said:

I think what the OP is trying to suggest is in the same camp as a "switch" bid where you switch two bids to gain a bit of bidding space......

No, thats not what he suggests. If u read the whole thread ( my first reply) this is an extension of another thread where he CLEARLY said that this auction should be treated exactly as the one above and bidding 4♣ without ♠ fit doesnt make sense. If you look at the OP, it is asking to construct 4 hands that makes sense with the bidding and he was trying to make a point that there is no hand where bidding 4♣ without ♠ fit makes sense and/or is neccesarry.

1♣-1♥-1♠- pass
4♣

vianu2, on 2011-August-01, 14:49, said:

6 cards suit with 3 cards spade fit, isn't it?
It is like 1♣-1♠-4♣ 6 cards with 3 cards support...
A 4♣ bid without spade support doesn't exist.
So S may agree clubs with 4♦ and 4♥-4♠ are available.
Why are we so conservative when bidding offensive hands and most of us agree to open 3rd vulnerable against not a 9hcps count with kqjxx spade
.

After realizing the nonsense, the rest was an effort to recover from it, which actually turned out to be even more nonsense.

-First he said what i wrote above

-Then he tried his luck by telling opener can not have a reasonable hand without a♥ stopper and ♠ fit, since he didnt bid 3 NT.

-Then he decided that the people who replied had no clue about bridge in other thread, and decided to make a new thread to find some support from real experts. Unfortunately even the most imaginative posters could not give him what he asked for, he basically REFUSED, LAUGHED and made fun of every and each poster.

-Speaking of nonsense, the very same person, claimed that 1♠ over 1♥ is a constructive bid, that pd should have a good hand

vianu2, on 2011-August-02, 01:31, said:

That constructive auction 1cl-1h-1sp with q10xxx xx kxxx xx makes me understand your responses to t/o X

-Then he came up with this idea of 4♣ being competitive or forcing. Now this is where it gets very funny because he originally suggested that he would either bid 3 NT or pass with those kinda hands

-He also said he asked to one of the pros, and admitted that the pro told him this 4♣ doesnt show ♠ fit. Guess what, he disagreed with him too !

-Now speaking of the pro he relies on, WATCH this, this is some piece of work. OP and his pro friend thinks in the auction and hand below, after 3♥ preempt, 3♠ by N is insufficient, 4♠ is insufficient, we must bid 4♥ (says pro) and our hero says Nooo, we must bid 4♣ to show good ♣ suit + 3 card ♠!!

---

And LAST but not LEAST, quote of the 2011

vianu2, on 2011-August-01, 16:17, said:

............ Why do i need to show my 7 cards on level 4?
Why do i open 1♣ if i have only clubs? What do i miss?

This is sad, this is what happens when you let kids play with Ammo.

[OleBerg]

MrAce, on 2011-August-04, 00:08, said:

No, ...

I agree.

But still some good came out of it: Andy's last post is well-written, informative and worth reading. (And done with enviable patience.)

[MrAce]

OleBerg, on 2011-August-04, 00:28, said:

But still some good came out of it: Andy's last post is well-written, informative and worth reading. (And done with enviable patience.)

I can't possibly disagree with this. Very true.

[vianu2]

MrAce, on 2011-August-04, 00:08, said:

No, thats not what he suggests.

That mr Ace must suffering "old American marriage" nothing to say in the house, lots of crap outside ...

[gwnn]

If we admit that we all suck and you are awesome, will you stop these constant insults?