[Hanoi5]

Team match, all red, after two passes your RHO opens 3♦, you hold:

♠K8xx
♥AKQ87
♦K7x
♣A

What would you do? What would you do over a 4♦ pre-empt?

[hrothgar]

Double strikes me as very dangerous (too great a chance that partner will bid clubs)

3NT has a certain sick appeal.
We have a Diamond stop. The hearts could very well run. However, when 3N goes wrong, it goes very wrong.

I'm going to make a prosaic 3♥ bid (even though I would dearly love a sixth heart)

[wyman]

3N for me, but I'm not real happy about it. 4-any is too much of a position for me, and 3M is just too wimpy for me with this hand. Wouldn't take much to convince me X is best, but I have no idea what to do over 5C, so that's out for me.

[mck4711]

4♦ for me: take out for the majors.

3NT looks without a long running suit not that good.
X looks dangerous 'cos of 4♣ from partner.

[semeai]

Over 3♦ I double. If partner bids 4♣, I'll bid 4♥. It's true I feel quite unhappy over 5♣.

Over 4♦ I'll just bid 4♥.

[MrAce]

DBL then bid, 4♥ over 4♣. 4♦ over 3♥/♠

If u change my hand to Kxxx AKxxx KQx A then i would bid 3 NT.

[wyman]

MrAce, on 2011-August-03, 15:26, said:

DBL then bid, 4♥ over 4♣. 4♦ over 3♥/♠

If u change my hand to Kxxx AKxxx KQx A then i would bid 3 NT.

And over 5C?

[mikeh]

Have to say double, I think. I like wide range overcalls but 3♥ is simply too little on this hand. He will pass 3♥ on many hands where we belong in game and even more hands where we belong in spades.

Yes, we may live to regret this....I don't like our choices over partner's 5♣, but all calls carry risks and our responsibility is to weigh them and decide accordingly. Bidding 3♥ carries enormous risks, as does 3N, compared to double. Double loses only when partner bids 5♣ (I pass 5♣...it might even make).

We can handle all calls partner makes other than the unlikely 5♣...unlikely because partner didn't preempt in clubs (which negates a small part of the family of hands warranting 5♣ now) and probably doesn't have a lot of high cards (we have 19, RHO probably has 6+). I intend to raise a major to game, and to correct 4♣ to 4♥.

I'd almost consider 4♦ but I'd rather be in a 5-2 heart fit on this hand than a 4-3 spade fit....besides, I'd like to reserve 4♦ for a purer hand-type for a variety of reasons.

Edit: i did a quick simulation, admittedly imprecise.....gave partner no more than 11 hcp (and rejected a few of the resulting hands) and rho 7 diamonds with no more than 10 hcp and no 4 card major. I ran 100 hands and rejected half a dozen. I was looking only for hands where we get to 5♣ and we had a better spot. I found only 3 hands in total where we get to a failing 5♣ and we weren't making 3N or 4M on 2 of them, tho in one case we'd clearly be doubled in 5♣ and not enjoying it very much. I did assume that partner would not bid clubs with a 4 card major, which some may find objectionable. I wasn't trying to be precise...i wanted an impression of how frequently the 'nightmare' 5♣ response would happen...it happened about 6 times, but on 3 of them, it made, so I didn't worry about those

[MrAce]

wyman, on 2011-August-03, 15:28, said:

And over 5C?

Pd is coming from pass, but there can still be hands he could bid 5♣, though i think it is unlikely or less frequent. If what you are asking me is "do i believe DBL is a perfect bid ?" No i dont honestly.

But i can come up with hands partner may hold more frequently than hands that jumps to 5♣ which makes other choices look bad.

3NT is bad with only one stopper, and partner will pass with wide majority of hands, including 5 card majors. Because 3NT bid itself can be made with wide range and shape of hands.

3♥ bid has the disadvantage of 1- Missing game due to our extras 2-Kxxx ♠ is a value which makes our game chances much higher when combined with 19 hcp, which is not a common strength of an overcall (although i do it more t han normal people do, but not this hand)

4♦ would not even cross my mind.

[wyman]

Ok, so you guys are passing 5C. That was kind of my impression too. I don't have a 5-red call certainly.

I'm not disagreeing, just trying to make my own mind up still. Definitely worried about one of these 3325 hands. or 2326. Pard would need a decent suit to open up 3C vul, so I'm actually feeling really bad now if he bids 5C.

My argument for 3N I guess is that I can probably duck LHO out of diamonds and hook into the safe hand in one of the majors if he's got an entry in the other. Looks like I've got 2 in the minors and need 7 in the majors. If he's got as little as the ace (or QJ with an onside ace, or ...) of spades and HJx (or xxx and 3-2 hearts), we're making 3N (against the likely diamond lead and continuation -- I won't even think about what happens if LHO leads a club!). So I don't think 3N is such a disaster -- hey, it's only 9 tricks!

But you guys are super hesitant to bid it, so I'm a little worried that my judgment is off. Certainly if p is 4=1=3=5, I want to be in spades (although even then, he'd need only AQJx or AQxx and 3-2 or AQ10x and a guess or QJxx, HJ, and spades 3-2 or HJ & Q10xx and spades AJx onside, or ...).

I think this is a really good problem actually. I'm still not completely swayed to violate Hamman's rule here yet, but I'm extremely interested in a sim if someone can come up with appropriate parameters.

[MrAce]

wyman, on 2011-August-03, 16:22, said:

Ok, so you guys are passing 5C. That was kind of my impression too. I don't have a 5-red call certainly.

....So I don't think 3N is such a disaster -- hey, it's only 9 tricks!

But you guys are super hesitant to bid it, so I'm a little worried that my judgment is off....

No, 3 NT is not such a disaster at all, and my 2nd choice. And i don't think your judgement is off at all. It is, as you stated, a good problem. 3NT can easily be the winning bid. After all, we all are bidding a very strong hand after a 3 level preempt.

I personally thought, when choosing DBL, this would optimize my chances in long run due to keeping more number of games available in picture. I thought starting DBL there are a lot of things that will make me happy to hear from pd and only 1 thing ( a jump to 5♣ by a passed hand ) that would make me regret my choice.

I am happy to hear 3♥ or 3♠ or 3NT, and i have a decent hand to make another bid over 4♣. I am also happy if pd for whatever reasons believes that passing this DBL is good for us. I maybe off with my expectations, but neiher your 3 NT or my DBL is a disaster bid imo.

[frank0]

3NT over 3♦
4♥ over 4♦

If my partner agree to play optional or penalty double at any of this position, I double.

Sorry can anyone delete this post for me?

[frank0]

3NT over 3♦
4♥ over 4♦

If my partner agrees to play optional or penalty double at any of this position, I double

[the hog]

Double for me. This is too good for a 3H bid in my book.

[MrAce]

frank0, on 2011-August-03, 19:05, said:

3NT over 3♦
4♥ over 4♦

If my partner agree to play optional or penalty double at any of this position, I double.

Sorry can anyone delete this post for me?

You can click on "edit" in your post and delete it yourself and say "deleted due to double post"