[inquiry]

In the beginner discussion group, the question comes up if you raise with three card support after an auction like 1C-(p)-1S-(p)-?

If you do not, skip this thread. There are a lot of you, and we leave you to your own devices. This is for the elightened (few?) who raise frequently.

A number of questoin were raised in the beginner thread, and I think it is time to see how we "advanced+" players handle the auction.

A few question,

1) how do you limit your hand with the three card raise (approximate maximum hcp range, approximate value raise counting distribution).

2) Can you have a good six card minor and still raise?

3) If 1c-1S-2S-3c forcing?

4) How do you play 1c-1S-2S-2NT (natural, asking, other?)

5) How do you play 1c-1S-2S-3S

6) What kind of hand with 3 card support is too good for the direct raise, and how do you bid that?

If you haven't already considered these questions, I suspect it is best if you don't raise on three card support. So I assume most will ahve answers to some of these.

[mr1303]

In my limited opening system (16+ 1C, 4+ 1D), we have this strongly defined when we can raise with 3 card support. I'm replacing 1C 1S 2S with 1D 1S 2S

1) If the raise is made on a 3 card suit, it'll be based on our 11-13 balanced hand. A bid of 1NT here will deny a small doubleton in one of the unbid suits, and 1 of the suits will be properly stopped

2) We can raise with 3 cards and a good 6 card minor, but we use 2NT for this bid. Since 2NT has no normal meaning in a limited opening system, we lose nothing by bidding this way, especially as we pass with weak hands without a fit.

3) 1D 1S 2S 3D is not forcing, but is a game invitation. With any 4 card support for spades we return to at least 3 spades. We are only able to pass this since 1D always promises 4 diamonds.

4) 2NT is natural and invitational, suggesting only 4 spades

5) 3S is asking for good trumps here (AQx is good trumps, xxxx is bad trumps.) Responder will have 5 cards for this bid

6) See 2. We like to open 1NT (12-15, maybe 4414) a lot, as we have good agreements over 1NT openings), and anything stronger is opened 1C. With 3145/4154 shape we rebid 2C, unless the minors are weak and the spades are strong.

[whereagles]

I also used to do this sort of raise in the context of limited openings, which is where I think it works better. I didn't do it with a balanced hand, though (bid 1NT, pard can always correct with 5 in major).

I'm not particularly fond of it, but wouldn't argue with a pard that wishes to play it.

[inquiry]

1) Limit of my raise to 2M, is around 13 hcp.. it can be 14, but it must be pretty balanced hand, certainly no side singleton. I open 14-16 1NT.

2) My direct raise to 2 can not be on three card suit with a good six card minor. For like Mr1303, I have a special bid for this.. but it is not 2NT (I have another use for that), it is a jump rebid of my minor, which is not forcing, btw.

3) Yes indeed, I also play 1m-1M-2M-3m as not forcing, but opener is expected to return to the major with a four card fit, and pass only with minimum hand and three card major support.

4) I use 1m-1M-2M-2NT as 1RF, asking opener for more information. It is a solid game try, if not game force. So two bids opener has to be wary of with more than a minimum, 3 of the minor and 3 of the major.

5) The question of how best to play the re-raise to 3 is still open for speculation. II am not sure what the best use of it is, especially if 2NT is used as a general game try. I use it primarily as blocking.

6) We have two unusual agreements. The first is that 1m-1M-2NT is "jacoby 2NT by opener" showing good 4 card support and a hand too strong for an immediate 3M raise. Our immediate 3M raise is very narrowly defined... about 15-16 points (counting distribution). 2NT is not game force, but we use the same kind of jacoby 2NT plus reponses by responder as used by opener of 1M and hearing a 2NT response (3C being, dead minimum, etc). Wtihtout 2NT to show balanced 17+, we use new minor forcing by opener. So here we would bid, for instance 1D-1S-2C as 100% forcing. IF we raise the major now, this shows a hand too good for the immediate 2S raise, and of course if we rebid 2NT we show the balanced hand.

Ben

[gabika73]

1. Max 13(-14) HCP. It cannot be of great playing strength.

2. I raise M with weak 6card minor and strong major holding. I rebid minor with the opposite (since this can be as strong as 17, partner is expected to keep the auction alive, if not bare minimum...). If in between, I will raise if partner is better player - as Kantar put it...;-)

3. Same as Ben. Though, for me, all 3level bids (below 3M) are NF INV (i.e. new minor shows INV hand 5+ minor, 4 major.).

4. F1 INV with these responses

5. 3S shows 5cards, and generally wants good trumps for game.

6. Hands with good 6carder, 14+ HCP in 3154, etc. I make up some bid (mostly 2m or 2om), and show support next round.
We jump(-shift) with real strong hands, so responder is expected to continue after 2om.

[EricK]

I play a weak NT, which obviously affects which hands will raise on a 3 card suit.

1) Nearly every minimum hand with 3 card support will raise. Because of weak NT, it will nearly always have a singleton except...

2)...if there is a six card minor! I will often raise on the 3 card suit, but if the suit is xxx, and the minor is strong then I will probably rebid the minor - especially if there is no singleton.

3) A belated support of opener's minor shows exactly 4 of the major, genuine support (usually 5+) and is a non-forcing game try.

4) 2NT again promises exactly 4 of the major, and ask for clarification - minimum bids will confirm 3 card support, higher bids promise 4

5) Invitational, 6 card suit, probably no help in opener's minor (with a semblance of a double fit, there is no point in inviting)

6) A strong NT type will rebid 1NT. A new suit (non-reverse) is nearly forcing and we will do that on most unbalanced non-minima.

Eric

[Flame]

We play Polish club and 15-17 NT
1. 12-14 (see 6)
2. no i will bid 2c , or speciall 3c that show 15-17 6 clubs and 3 card support.
3. inv nf.
4.natural inv,with 4 cards major. this is good at mp, and its simple, but maybe we will change it one day.
5. 3sp would have 5 card spade, inv, asking for good trumps, since any other 3 would be trail bid.
6. I saw many bid 2sp with very narrow hcp count, i think this is wrong, you will have a big problem with unbalance hand without 4 card support. that is just a bit too strong for 2sp, i think its not a big mistake to strech the 2sp bid, for example
14 hcp 3145 this is very strong, but what are the alternatives ?
over 2sp, if partner have a balance hand with 4 card spade, then if he has no bid we are fine in 2sp, if he have 5 card spade he doesnt need too much to continue.
Sure this isnt perfect but i dont think the alternatives like 2c would be better since partner would definelty pass 2c with a hand he would have passed 2sp.

[Cascade]

We play weak NT and four-card majors if that is relevant.

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1) how do you limit your hand with the three card raise (approximate maximum hcp range, approximate value raise counting distribution).

We raise fairly freely with three-card support and a minimum opener around 11-15 hcp.

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2) Can you have a good six card minor and still raise?

No. This adds definition when we show three card support later - partner will know that our first suit is a good six-card suit.

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3) If 1c-1S-2S-3c forcing?

I need to check with my partner. Forcing I checked.

For us this cannot be long clubs. As with 10+ points and four or more clubs we would make a fit jump immediately.

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4) How do you play 1c-1S-2S-2NT (natural, asking, other?)

This is a generic force. It is used to enquire about four-card support and strength. It also adds definition to our new suit game tries which will always be a real two-suiter.

This and a new suit can be a slam try hand.

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5) How do you play 1c-1S-2S-3S

Invitational with long spades. Some of these hands will bid 2NT though. I would expect that 3♠ will not have a singleton.

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6) What kind of hand with 3 card support is too good for the direct raise, and how do you bid that?

Around 16+.

We would bid a new suit.

On some auctions with a good six-card suit we can show three-card support for responder along with our six-card suit.

[the hog]

1) how do you limit your hand with the three card raise (approximate maximum hcp range, approximate value raise counting distribution).
Playing a weak NT, the raise nearly always shows an unbalanced min

2) Can you have a good six card minor and still raise?
Yes, but the minor would be weakish

3) If 1c-1S-2S-3c forcing?
Yes, we play this as Richard has already suggested

4) How do you play 1c-1S-2S-2NT (natural, asking, other?)
Forcing, asking for amount of support.

5) How do you play 1c-1S-2S-3S
Pre empt

6) What kind of hand with 3 card support is too good for the direct raise, and how do you bid that?
The Bridge World hand of death is too good for a raise. There are some ways and means around this. In a big C system eg an artificial 2N can be used to show 14-15 and 3 card M support. Playing standard methods, this is always going to be a problem hand.

[luke warm]

i'm trying to learn a canape system that incorporates 12-15 nt (btw mike, where's that book? ), so this will never come up (if i understand a little right now)...

for example, if i open 1D (11-15 hcp) and pard bids 1H, this is a weak relay asking for my 2nd suit.. if pard bids 1S, this guarantees 5 pcs and is also not forcing... 1nt is 10+ and the only forcing bid (again, this is from memory, i need that book)

[MickyB]

That's interesting Luke, I'm looking at a very similar system atm, but I don't think I am the Mike that you are referring to! What is the book called?

In one of my partnerships, I played weak NT and short club. One of the advantages of a weak NT is that 1m:1M, 2M can't be a balanced minimum - If you promise 4 card support then the weakest hand you can have is a 2425 12 count. Unbalanced minimums with 3 card support tend to be a fair bit weaker than this, losing some of the advantage - previously 10 counts with a 4 card major could just bid game, now they have nowhere to go. I think that 1m:1M, 2M:3m has to be invitational, because then the 10 count with a 4 card major has a stopping place if he also has 3 cards in the minor.

I would rebid a 6 card club suit in preference to raise a major on 3 cards (because I've only shown 2 clubs) but I would raise instead of rebidding a 6 card diamond suit (because I've almost promised 5 diamonds).

I'm surprised by the number of people who play 2NT as a forcing enquiry. Then again, most have said that they play 2M as very limited in HCP, only Cascade combined 2N forcing with 2M wide-ranging (11-15).

[luke warm]

micky, i'm not sure what the name of the book is... i *think* it's 'simple club' by larry weiss

i play weak nt now, so that isn't a change (we've even agreed to play my response structure)... in this system, let's say it goes 1d : 1s ... now i can support with 3 because 1s promised 5

[hrothgar]

luke warm, on Oct 9 2004, 01:09 AM, said:

i'm trying to learn a canape system that incorporates 12-15 nt (btw mike, where's that book? ), so this will never come up (if i understand a little right now)...

for example, if i open 1D (11-15 hcp) and pard bids 1H, this is a weak relay asking for my 2nd suit.. if pard bids 1S, this guarantees 5 pcs and is also not forcing... 1nt is 10+ and the only forcing bid (again, this is from memory, i need that book)

If any of you are interesting in learning/practicing MOSCITO, drop me a line....

[helium]

I play strong nt and i never raise whit a 3 card supp unless i have a singelton/void or the 3 card "looks like 4 cards" like AKQ or AKJ KQJ
and never whit a 6 cards minor

kenneth