[inquiry]

Bidding goes..

1H - 1S
2H - 3C
4D

Where 1S showed some spades, 2H was non-forcing, 3C was new minor forcing, presumably a club suit.

What does 4D show?

[pbleighton]

"Where 1S showed some spades, 2H was non-forcing, 3C was new minor forcing, presumably a club suit."

Not "NMF", as in after a NT rebid, artificial and guaranteeing 5 spades, but just a natural club bid?

"What does 4D show?"

6 hearts and 5 diamonds?

Peter

[cnszsun]

Opener's hand can't become stronger by himself, so i think only reasonable explanation is good ♣ fit found.

[inquiry]

pbleighton, on Oct 6 2004, 09:59 PM, said:

"Where 1S showed some spades, 2H was non-forcing, 3C was new minor forcing, presumably a club suit."

Not "NMF", as in after a NT rebid, artificial and guaranteeing 5 spades, but just a natural club bid?

"What does 4D show?"

6 hearts and 5 diamonds?

Peter

What I mean is 3♣ shows club values.. if in your system it has to have four plus clubs, that is ok with me, but it is forcing (a minimum 2H rebidder can not decide to pass).

Ben

[the hog]

Whatever you have agreed it to mean. With my pd?
2 6 1 4 shape, decent 6H bt not good enough to jump, something like
xx AQJTxx x Axxx or similar.

[jtfanclub]

pbleighton, on Oct 6 2004, 08:59 PM, said:

"Where 1S showed some spades, 2H was non-forcing, 3C was new minor forcing, presumably a club suit."

Not "NMF", as in after a NT rebid, artificial and guaranteeing 5 spades, but just a natural club bid?

"What does 4D show?"

6 hearts and 5 diamonds?

Peter

I'm pretty sure that's what 3♦ would show, yes?

Well, let's see....

Partner's gone past 3NT, so this is a GF bid in a suit. But if partner knew which suit he'd just bid it- I doubt he just went from wanting to play a partial to exploring for slam just because his partner invited to game.

Well, you might bid 1♠ followed by 3♣ with four spades and five clubs, and you might do it with five spades and four clubs, but you'd never do it with 4 spades and 4 clubs. So partner wants to play in an 8 card fit.

My vote is that partner has exactly 3613 distribution, probably about a 14-15 count. He didn't say 2♠ over 1♠ because he'd rather play in a 6-2 (or even a 6-1) than a 4-3, and who wouldn't? He's stuck for a bid after 3♣. If he says 3♠ I presume that's non-forcing, and now he wants to play in game (he may have wanted to play in game before, but he felt his hand wasn't worth a 3♥ bid and 2♣ misdescribes his hand too much). He can't say 4♠ because because he doesn't want to play in the 4-3 fit. So he made up a diamond call. It's not really Splinter, although this time it turns out that way. He just wants you to pick between the black suits. And hey, if you're 4225, you can still play in 4♥.

My mentor says that every time your partner makes a bid that isn't a signoff, it shows some doubt about either strain or level. In this case, it sounds like partner is pretty clear on the level, so he must have doubts about the strain.

Let's see, random hand: KQx AJxxxx x AJx.

Bidding 3♥ makes for a lot of very bad possibilities. Like playing it 3NT losing five diamond tricks off the top and missing a 5-3 spade fit. Maybe you can bid 3♠ with this hand, but I can't. Best of the bad possibilites is 2♥.

Quote

Whatever you have agreed it to mean. With my pd?
2 6 1 4 shape, decent 6H bt not good enough to jump, something like
xx AQJTxx x Axxx or similar.

With a hand that trashy, why not just bid 5♣? You're afraid partner's concealing heart support?

[the hog]

Whatever you have agreed it to mean. With my pd?
2 6 1 4 shape, decent 6H bt not good enough to jump, something like
xx AQJTxx x Axxx or similar.

With a hand that trashy, why not just bid 5♣? You're afraid partner's concealing heart support?"

You think this is a trashy hand? Hmm!! On AKxxx xx xx KQJx 6H is on a hook. Perhaps either you or I had better look at our ways of evaluation hands.

[jtfanclub]

The_Hog, on Oct 7 2004, 02:33 AM, said:

Whatever you have agreed it to mean. With my pd?
2 6 1 4 shape, decent 6H bt not good enough to jump, something like
xx AQJTxx x Axxx or similar.

With a hand that trashy, why not just bid 5♣? You're afraid partner's concealing heart support?"

You think this is a trashy hand? Hmm!! On AKxxx xx xx KQJx 6H is on a hook. Perhaps either you or I had better look at our ways of evaluation hands.

It doesn't matter if you have a slam if you can't find it.

Why don't you tell me how you'd bid after 4♦ so that you'd find the iffy 6♥ this time (even if the hook works you may fail if they split 4-1) but arrive safely in 5♣ if partner has Jx AQTxxx x Axxx?

You don't have the space to explore for slam. If 4♦ is a slam invitation your partner needs to be able to accept or decline right now, without any additional information. Your hand isn't good enough to do that.

[Chamaco]

jtfanclub, on Oct 7 2004, 07:08 AM, said:

Ron said:

something like
xx AQJTxx x Axxx or similar.

With a hand that trashy, why not just bid 5♣? You're afraid partner's concealing heart support?

1) I agree that 4D shows clubs.
The hand posted by Ron seems quite reasonable

2) Why did not the hand jump to 5 clubs ?

a) there is no reason to jump to 5 clubs, since 4 diamonds is NOT a slam invitation; opener has already limited his hand to a minimum by rebidding 2H, so 4D by him cannot absolutely be a slam invitation, but rather a "pick a game" suggestion to partner;

b ) besides, jumping to 5 clubs gives up the chance for partner to signoff in 4H OR 4 spades, or even passing 4 clubs could be a winner if the hand is a bad misfit; on the other hand, slam could be on, but opener is not in a position to be able to decide.

IMO the best opener can do is bid 4D to describe his hand and leave it up to partner to place the contract.

[jtfanclub]

Quote

b ) besides, jumping to 5 clubs gives up the chance for partner to signoff in 4H OR 4 spades, or even passing 4 clubs could be a winner if the hand is a bad misfit

OK, somebody explain that part to me.

There's nothing wrong with bidding 4♣ with the Hog's hand...if the 3♣ could possibly be a three card suit then it's definitely the winning bid. But I don't think 4♦ is correct. You have to have a pick-a-suit option that includes spades. Otherwise, if your partner is 5224, how does he know to bid 4♥ and not 4♠?

[Chamaco]

jtfanclub, on Oct 7 2004, 08:47 AM, said:

Quote

b ) besides, jumping to 5 clubs gives up the chance for partner to signoff in 4H OR 4 spades, or even passing 4 clubs could be a winner if the hand is a bad misfit

OK, somebody explain that part to me.

There's nothing wrong with bidding 4♣ with the Hog's hand...if the 3♣ could possibly be a three card suit then it's definitely the winning bid. But I don't think 4♦ is correct. You have to have a pick-a-suit option that includes spades. Otherwise, if your partner is 5224, how does he know to bid 4♥ and not 4♠?

4C would be passable.
If pard has bid 3C on 3-cards values only, he will convert to to 4H in a 6-1 or 6-2 fit or rebid 4 spades if he has a good 6 bagger in spades and hearts shortness.

[jtfanclub]

Chamaco, on Oct 7 2004, 04:06 AM, said:

4C would be passable.
If pard has bid 3C on 3-cards values only, he will convert to to 4H in a 6-1 or 6-2 fit or rebid 4 spades if he has a good 6 bagger in spades and hearts shortness.

OK, 4♣ is passable. That isn't a bad thing...if your partner has a singleton heart and four clubs, 4♣ may be the limit of the example hand, depending upon if he has wastage in diamonds.

But the Hog wasn't suggesting bidding 4♣ with it...he was suggesting 4♦. That doesn't make passing an option.

I think if your partner has a good 6 bagger in spades and heart shortness he isn't bidding three clubs.

Take the Hog's hand and move a deuce:

xxx AQJTxx x Axx

How do you bid this hand, so your partner can differentiate it from 2614?

[Chamaco]

jtfanclub, on Oct 7 2004, 09:18 AM, said:

Chamaco, on Oct 7 2004, 04:06 AM, said:

4C would be passable.
If pard has bid 3C on 3-cards values only, he will convert to to 4H in a 6-1 or 6-2 fit or rebid 4 spades if he has a good 6 bagger in spades and hearts shortness.

OK, 4♣ is passable. That isn't a bad thing...if your partner has a singleton
heart and four clubs, 4♣ may be the limit of the example hand, depending upon if he has wastage in diamonds.

I believe in most hands where 4C is a good spot, 4H or 4S has god chances so it is worth trying game rather than a disappointing 4-level clubs partscore...

Quote

But the Hog wasn't suggesting bidding 4♣ with it...he was suggesting 4♦.  That doesn't make passing an option. 

I think if your partner has a good 6 bagger in spades and heart shortness he isn't bidding three clubs. 

Take the Hog's hand and move a deuce:

xxx AQJTxx x Axx

How do you bid this hand, so your partner can differentiate it from 2614?

With the hand posted it may be dangerous to signoff in 4 spades.

I'd personally go via 4th suit forcing, bidding 3D planning to rebid 4S even if pard bids 3NT.
This should show an unbalanced hand (you already showed 6 bagger in H) and presumably shortness in diamonds.

Still, if pard presses on, I'd be worried for trump quality.

[whereagles]

I would also take it as a splinter in support of clubs. Seems the most sensible meaning to me.

[Free]

I think it's a splinter. Probably some fit in ♣, maybe even a 3 card ♠...

[Gerben47]

Agree with Free. I think something like: 3 6 1 3 and maximum for the previous 2♥ bid.

[flytoox]

This has to be splinter for Club. I cant imagine other cases after a limit 2H rebid.

Hongjun

[flytoox]

The_Hog, on Oct 7 2004, 02:16 AM, said:

Whatever you have agreed it to mean. With my pd?
2 6 1 4 shape, decent 6H bt not good enough to jump, something like
xx AQJTxx x Axxx or similar.

Yes, I think this has to be the shape.

[Fluffy]

Tehre is no sense for a ♣ support since normall 3♣ is made form a 3 carder to investigate ♠ fit.

Further more, opener has DENIED 4♣ and 4♦ (unless he has a 7 card suit in wich case it doesn´t matter you belong to ♥ contrtact).

So the only possible thing left is autosplinter, something like:


♠K5
♥AQJ10862
♦3
♣Q103

[inquiry]

Well, I maybe biased becasuse my 3♣ bid here doesn't absolutely promise clubs, but I don't play this as showing club support.

I also maybe biased but it I had a hand like 6 hearts, four clubs and 15 hcp, I would not have rebid 2♥.. with a goodish hand and 6 hearts I would rebid my club suit. I have been known to bid 2C over 1S here on a three card suit to an honor when holding a fairly good hand... that is I respond almost as if my partners initial bid had been a forcing 1NT.. rebidding 2♥ with six only when weak.

And I think with real diamonds, we all agree that opener would rebid 3NT or perhaps 3D, not 4♦. so diamonds has to be, imho, a splinter.

Now people have suggested this is a splinter in support of spades, a splinter in support of clubs (very popular)... I think this is a self-splinter in support of opener's own heart suit. A hand very much like what Fluffy came up with (although the hand I would construct would be considerable weaker perhaps.... I would make the bid without the spade King he showed). A prototypical hand I would guess would be something like...

S-Jx H=AQJT9xx D-x C-Qxx... you could change a black suit face card to bigger I guess. This helps define the 3♥ and 4♥ rebids over 3♣ as well. And notice, this is farily close to Ron's hand he came up with.... I just dont' think four clubs is necessary.. the principle in the same.

Ben