[manudude03]

Thought about 4NT myself, but there are so many near busts which make slam and even gives grand play (xxxxx Qx xxxx xx needs trumps 2-1 and the ♣K coming down in 3 rounds to make grand etc) so decided to cuebid and hope partner gets the message that I just need something useful. The problem with asking for the trump Q is that partner probably doesn't know xxxxx is good enough (when did we show the 5th spade?)

[Zelandakh]

I thought about this too but I also thought that partner would have Qxxx or xxxxx in spades for the 2S bid. Hence I did not mention looking for the trump queen after 4NT. This is a case where knowing your partner's competitive tendencies would be helpful.

[Fluffy]

tough luck, partner's 2 spades is an overbid IMO, I wouldn't do it opposite a direct double, a reopening double should be even worse. Even then, spades 2-2 would had been enough.

[MrAce]

Fluffy, on 2011-October-31, 03:57, said:

Timo partner doesn't hold ♦K, he has ♦A partner is not stupid and won't cue a useless king.

♦A gets rid of the heart, and now we have good chances in 6♠, if no trump loser all we need is ♣K or ♣J or doubleton in partner's hands, even ♣xxx can be enough with 5 trumps ednplaying west on a non club lead. ♠Q ♦A ♣K is not science fiction but I don't think I'll ever be comfortable enough to bid grand anyway.

I dont understand what u are trying to say to be honest.

I never said pd has ♦ A or K, and i dont even care what he has in ♦. I dont even need to discard a ♥ on ♦ A, i will do it on ♣ suit. I never suggested to bid short of slam either. All i said was that i wld bid slam now and i wld not look for grand because i was % 100 sure pd did not have ♣K. He would have bid slam if he had both ♦A and ♣K.

This was the main debate between me and Aguaman, he believed pd still can have ♣K after his 5♦ bid and i defended the idea that he can not. The idea that we shd have bid 4NT over 4♠ was mine too, just to be able to ask specific Kings afterwards. Instead of fancy cuebidding your way to grandslam.

So i dunno what part of my argument you disagree with.

[MrAce]

manudude03, on 2011-October-31, 06:56, said:

Thought about 4NT myself, but there are so many near busts which make slam and even gives grand play (xxxxx Qx xxxx xx needs trumps 2-1 and the ♣K coming down in 3 rounds to make grand etc) so decided to cuebid and hope partner gets the message that I just need something useful. The problem with asking for the trump Q is that partner probably doesn't know xxxxx is good enough (when did we show the 5th spade?)

You dont need ♣K coming in 3rd, u can handle Kxxx ♣ too.

[jdeegan]

Two comments on the actual hand:

1. Imho, E is more than a bit light for his initial 2♠ call - not really disciplined. However, having overbid the first time, he shouldn't cue bid a likely useless ♦ ace (RHO has six+ ♦ and I have five, and pard jump cue bid the ♦ suit looking for a ♠ slam on probably less than 30 HCP combined).

2. I am still not fully understanding Timo's point that E has absolutely denied the ♣ king. I'm in favor of bidding 5♥ followed by 6♠ just in case E does have second round ♣ control. I don't see how it can hurt to let pard know I have been looking for seven the whole time.

[MrAce]

jdeegan, on 2011-October-31, 20:03, said:

2. I am still not fully understanding Timo's point that E has absolutely denied the ♣ king. I'm in favor of bidding 5♥ followed by 6♠ just in case E does have second round ♣ control. I don't see how it can hurt to let pard know I have been looking for seven the whole time.

The reason i was against it at the first place was thinking u guys are looking for ♣K for slam. If u are gonna bid slam anyway as Aguaman said it doesnt hurt i guess.

I just hate all this fancy torture sequences. At the end the way u guys suggest, the weak hand will have to bid grandslam over 6♠ with ♣K. We can make grandslam vs Qxxx xxx xxx Kxx and we are making pd bid it while we could easily learn these both important cards. Thats what strikes me the most.

Maybe i am too simple minded for you guys, but when i start to cue at 5 level , i am not looking for grandslam. Thats why i thought pd would bid slam with ♣K already.

[gnasher]

If you bid Keycard, how will you distinguish between these two hands:
QJxx Qxx xxxx Kx
Qxxx xxx Kxxx Kx

By involving partner in a discussion, we at least give ourselves a chance of getting these right.

[whereagles]

Going down is a bit of bad luck, but this is a slam I wouldn't mind staying out of

[MrAce]

gnasher, on 2011-November-01, 02:47, said:

If you bid Keycard, how will you distinguish between these two hands:
QJxx Qxx xxxx Kx
Qxxx xxx Kxxx Kx

By involving partner in a discussion, we at least give ourselves a chance of getting these right.

Hand #1 is not an option, unless pd thought your splinter asked something else than his ♦ holdings. It is extremely far from being realistic also. It assumes that opponents bid like morons.

But if they did, and if u get this 5 level "discussions" for grandslam purposes with your pd always right to find out the perfect hand, more power to ya.