Decide democratically or autocratically ?
#1
Posted 2011-December-20, 17:29
A small diamond is led.
Dummy has KQ9, declarer 75.
Declarer's RHO now starts asking about the meaning of declarer's 5♦ bid as answer to dummy's 4NT key card asking.
In the mean time dummy has put the 9 of diamonds in the played position and declarer's RHO produces the Jack.
Declarer now indignantly asks what dummy and RHO think they are doing: he of course wants to play a high diamond.
The opponents call for the TD.
Both opponents and dummy say that they have heard declarer utter "a small diamond." Declarer vehemently denies this: he was pondering the play of the hand as one should after dummy has been tabled and he had not yet designated any card from dummy.
The opponents think declarer is outvoted, by his own parter no less.
So the nine is played then?
#2
Posted 2011-December-20, 17:56
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#3
Posted 2011-December-20, 18:01
What is baby oil made of?
#4
Posted 2011-December-20, 19:45
ggwhiz, on 2011-December-20, 18:01, said:
I don't think there's a legal basis for these assertions.
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#5
Posted 2011-December-20, 20:33
ggwhiz, on 2011-December-20, 18:01, said:
blackshoe, on 2011-December-20, 19:45, said:
Nor should there be. Dummy is better placed to recognize the mumblings and mutterings of his own partner. However, in this case we have 4th hand creating a distraction before dummy plays, and the likelihood that neither he nor dummy was paying attention to what declarer was saying.
Hence, like Blackshoe, I think I would heavily lean toward declarer's version of whether he called for a card and which one.
#6
Posted 2011-December-20, 21:02
However RHO has infracted by asking questions at not his turn. It is clear that this question out of turn contributed to any confusion.
Therefore unless there is strong evidence to the contrary I will rule against east-west and remind east that he should wait his turn before asking questions.
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon
#7
Posted 2011-December-21, 13:22
It does depend on when RHO started asking her questions, but assuming that it was *after* the ♦9 was "played" by dummy, I think that everything was fine by RHO - but that the ♦K is still to be played.
Law 57C1:
Quote
I would suggest that anything I could do "at my turn to play" should also not be subject to rectification, for exactly this case's reason. Declarer should, of course, refrain from answering until he does play from dummy - but ah well.
But it's inconceivable that declarer called for the low diamond, so the ♦K is played (when declarer does, in fact, get around to calling a card), the ♦
I was actually dummy in an almost equivalent call in Toronto. Diamond was played from Q8x, the opponents playing the 10 and the 9. Declarer then calls for the 8 - and, when told that it's not her play, became very surprised that the ♦Q was still on the table, because she played it to the last trick... I have a much higher level of "didn't hear you clearly, say again" with this partner since then!
Obviously, with 3 vs 1 one should lean toward the 3, but the Law says (L85A1):
Quote
#8
Posted 2011-December-21, 17:14
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#9
Posted 2011-December-21, 17:18
blackshoe, on 2011-December-21, 17:14, said:
No, what he was talking about had nothing to do with the OP, who stated that 4th chair began the jabber before the card was "played"; therefore nothing to do with the propriety of that person asking questions at a particular time.
#10
Posted 2011-December-21, 17:55
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#11
Posted 2011-December-22, 03:10
blackshoe, on 2011-December-21, 17:55, said:
- lead of a small diamond
- Dummy tables his hand
- Dummy puts the nine of diamonds in the played position because he thinks declarer asks him to play small.
- Declarer's RHO plays the Jack/starts asking questions while declarer is pondering the play of the hand.
- Declarere wakes up and states that he wants to play the King and that he does not understand what dummy and RHO think they are up to.
#12
Posted 2011-December-22, 03:57
AndreSteff, on 2011-December-22, 03:10, said:
- lead of a small diamond
- Dummy tables his hand
- Dummy puts the nine of diamonds in the played position because he thinks declarer asks him to play small.
- Declarer's RHO plays the Jack/starts asking questions while declarer is pondering the play of the hand.
- Declarere wakes up and states that he wants to play the King and that he does not understand what dummy and RHO think they are up to.
So, the time line changes after we waste our time paying attention to the original and discussing the timing of the questions by Declarer's RHO.
Wonder how Blackshoe knew to ask if the timeline was different than originally stated.
#13
Posted 2011-December-22, 04:29
aguahombre, on 2011-December-22, 03:57, said:
Wonder how Blackshoe knew to ask if the timeline was different than originally stated.
I am sorry if I wasted anybody's time. To me the two descriptions do not fundamentally differ.
#14
Posted 2011-December-22, 04:59
AndreSteff, on 2011-December-22, 04:29, said:
They do.
There is a major difference whether East began asking before or after the first card was apparently played from dummy.
East is free to ask questions about the auction after West has placed his opening lead face down on the table until West faces his opening lead, and then again after declarer has played the first card from dummy until East has played his own card to that trick.
#15
Posted 2011-December-22, 06:07
aguahombre, on 2011-December-22, 03:57, said:
Wonder how Blackshoe knew to ask if the timeline was different than originally stated.
I don't think it is. The OP said that RHO starts asking questions and in the mean time (i.e. before this) dummy has put a card in the played position.
#16
Posted 2011-December-22, 11:00
blackshoe, on 2011-December-21, 17:14, said:
#17
Posted 2011-December-22, 11:05
campboy, on 2011-December-22, 06:07, said:
In my world "meantime" would be in the middle..after questions started and before answers were completed. I never knew meantime to be before something.
#18
Posted 2011-December-22, 14:58
aguahombre, on 2011-December-22, 11:05, said:
That's what I thought, too. In fact, my first guess was that when the question was asked about the 5♦ call, dummy thought he heard "nine of diamonds". Although this wouldn't explain why RHO also thought he heard this card called, since the question came out of their own mouth.
#19
Posted 2011-December-22, 15:18
barmar, on 2011-December-22, 14:58, said:
there is no real indication that RHO didn't just follow suit after the nine, and then stayed true to form.
#20
Posted 2011-December-22, 15:24
aguahombre, on 2011-December-22, 11:05, said:
"In the meantime" means the same thing as "meanwhile", so the OP suggests that declarer's RHO started asking questions before dummy placed a card in the played position. Note that I use the construction "placed in the played position" purposefully dummy cannot "play" a card, in spite of the fact that the laws sometimes refer to him as having done so. See Law 45B.
Given the revised time line, I want to know exactly what dummy thought he heard, and when he thought he heard it.
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean